NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
PAK
KVRian
885 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:21 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:03 am
Vertion wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:00 am
only companies that respect this balance survives the long haul.
Go tell that to Avid or Steinberg.
But neither is doing what NI is doing! Steinberg offer a license replacement policy if you lose the dongle. Avid uses iLok, where there are several options available.

Both activate software in perpetuity once the license for this is on the dongle. Indeed, Avid even call this license type Protools Perpetual. Why do they offer this? Because they know many pro customers demand a perpetual license so they are never put in these sorts of situations!

Both companies methods are superior to challenge response in terms of a users control over ownership. Either company can go out of business and, provided you have a compatible machine, you'll still be able to use that software 40 years from now if you take care of the dongle :)

No further intervention required from anyone. You can reinstall your OS as many times as you want. No problem. You own the software license.

Companies who are not prepared to turn over a perpetual license, to the user, which can survive both OS and hardware changes, are effectively RENTING you their software. Your "ownership" is only valid for as long as the company wants it to be. They are in complete control, even over whether you can use what you pay for.

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
19667 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:09 am

I was only commenting specifically the part that was quoted. Nothing about perpetuity of licenses.

chk071
KVRAF
24040 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:15 am

PAK wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:17 am
chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:38 am
electro wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:35 am
Propellerheads did it with Rebirth
Yeah, awesome. It came with a 16-bit installer which couldn't even be run on 64-bit computers, and now Propellerhead don't even offer it anymore. ;) Tells you something? I guess not.
It tells you they set it free. So what happened? Someone took it and tried to fix installer the issues and posted it on KVR only the other month. That wouldn't have happened if they hadn't given it away! Isn't that kinda cool, outside of the fact it avoids the sorts of issues with having to keep supporting products just because someone wants to install it on their old machine?
You're aware though that you can't distribute Rebirth legally now that Propellerhead pulled the trigger, right? Apart from the fix not coming from the company, of course, and that was the thing here.

Anyway, it was nice from Propellerhead to release Rebirth for free, but, you can't expect that from every company, especially when there's potential plans to re-use the code, or re-use the content in any way, which none of us can know. And none of us should really speculate about. It's always easy to claim this and this and that as a customer, when you have no idea how to run a business, and no insights.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

PAK
KVRian
885 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:24 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:09 am
I was only commenting specifically the part that was quoted. Nothing about perpetuity of licenses.
Yep. So was I.
Vertion wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:00 am
Serialkey is the only balanced solution to copy protection in the market. Most customers catch on to this, and the market will eventually sort itself out as only companies that respect this balance survives the long haul.
EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:03 am
Go tell that to Avid or Steinberg.
These remarks might've been aimed purely at Steinberg or Avid offering serial key protection. However, in what way is perpetuity of licenses not directly related? That's the main reason why serial/key is a balanced solution! It offers that and also avoids the downsides of a dongle. It is the most customer friendly method.

But even dongles avoid many of the downsides of challenge / response, specifically because they offer the perpetual license too. Steinberg even provide backwards compatible licenses so you can run old versions! I'm not sure how far back the Cubase 10.5 license goes.. Probably Cubase SX?

Either way both companies practices would avoid situations like these.

PAK
KVRian
885 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:37 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:15 am
You're aware though that you can't distribute Rebirth legally now that Propellerhead pulled the trigger, right? Apart from the fix not coming from the company, of course, and that was the thing here.
That's a shame. But, in light of all the malware around etc, I suppose understandable..
Anyway, it was nice from Propellerhead to release Rebirth for free, but, you can't expect that from every company , especially when there's potential plans to re-use the code
You have info about Pro 54? ;)

Anyway, who expected anything? It's just another path to solving a situation. I previously mentioned they could unlock it too (no giveaway). I mean, if you want to explain why you think locking down some of this elderly software, with challenge response which may not even be automated and thus requires intervention from support persons, is a good idea.. go ahead.. :)

chk071
KVRAF
24040 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:08 pm

PAK wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:37 am
You have info about Pro 54? ;)
No, but, you never know. :)
PAK wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:37 am
if you want to explain why you think locking down some of this elderly software, with challenge response which may not even be automated and thus requires intervention from support persons, is a good idea.. go ahead.. :)
You make it sound as if they intentionally locked down the software just now. Thought Matt_NI had explained thoroughly that they're looking for a way to make it accessible again.

I really think we're running in circles here.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

PAK
KVRian
885 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:31 pm

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:08 pm
You make it sound as if they intentionally locked down the software just now.
No. That's just you making incorrect assumptions. But it previously being so is what lead to the present situation. By sticking with the same method they're essentially just pushing the same problem further off into the distance, rather than removing it. Since new efforts are actually being spent implementing said solution it's not unreasonable to suggest that perhaps those efforts might be better placed removing the issue entirely, where possible.

enroe
KVRian
1233 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:35 pm

If I go through the whole thread here, then I have a question
that's still kind of open, but which is certainly relevant to the
overall problem. Namely ... :

(1) Is the software, that was originally intended to not being
activatable after the 31st of May, a range of very old and
totally outdated products in the face of new developments?
Are these products, which are therefore used only be very
very few musicians?

Or:

(2) Is the software, that was originally intended to not being
activatable after the 31st of May, a still valuable product range,
which cannot be supported by Native Instruments, because
it just doesn't fit into the product pattern - technically or
commercially or whatever?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case (1), the question arises for me why this software
won't be exempted? Because if these products are so old and
useless anyway, why does NI put them then not free for the
very few remaining users? This would not cause any harm
to anyone.

In case (2) I am all the more confronted with the question
why this software - in its activatability - is killed? Because
if the products are still valuable and valid, i.e. if they are
still of high value for users, isn't it extremely daring to
simply "switch off" these products i.e. take them away
from the users? *

So what is it: (1) or (2)?

What is the view of Native Instruments here?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
* To be precise: "take them away from the
users" is my short description for "no longer activatable".
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de

PAK
KVRian
885 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:06 pm

enroe wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:35 pm
So what is it: (1) or (2)?
Why either or? Parts of both can be true. The numbers are low enough that NI decided to end activation completely. How low? NI would have to say.

It is likely NI under-estimated the number as some of the products live on old OS installations, spare computers, etc. This means NI might not have seen such machines in a decade or more. So there are probably a few hundred more users than their "data" indicated. But even they would have a degree of guessing as to the true numbers.. Thousands seems high, but maybe! :)

In terms of usage, there are a percentage of users (including professional) who mainly want older software to fully recall previous projects. Once in a while clients may request data or modifications, and they want to have the ability to modify beyond what rendering "stems" out to wave files (etc) would allow.

Finally, some users are thinking of upgrading. Everything was stuck at 4 cores for over a decade, but now that's changed people have more reasons to build new systems. Windows 7 support was also discontinued. The combo means more users are likely to consider upgrading over the next few years than previous years. Some might like to maintain specific old titles. Whether nostalgia or genuine use, who are we to judge? :)

NI's view? Good question, but they're looking to reverse the decision. So no need to panic. At the same time, it's brought some concerns forward, as people worry software they use may face the same fate. So it's down to the solution(s) NI provide, and any other reassurance they might provide to attempt to keep customer confidence.

Anyway, personally I'm out of the thread until there's actual updates. But I will say this.. There's a work-around possible for very long term usage. The user can choose to activate on a virtual machine. If they then back up the virtual machine, in theory, the software won't need reactivated as long as you have that back up and your OS supports the VM. There are various reasons why this isn't a great solution for realtime audio, but (in terms of very long term solutions to open old projects etc) it's a possible consideration. Though perpetual licenses would negate such steps :)

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djboomstick
KVRist
146 posts since 25 Feb, 2006 from Bergen

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:31 pm

hello ,
this thread reminded me that i have a Pro-53 from about 8 or 9 years ago .
i used it briefly then closed the studio to get a different building . . . time flies !!

i was able to login to my account , access the download install and reactivate with out much of any problems .

the service center needed an update from the installer version .

the updated service center insisted that it wanted to update itself , and failed , with a odd error message something like asking me if it would be ok to go ahead and use the installed version with out updating .

other than that little moment of weirdness , flawless fresh install .

it sounds nice , i'm glad i was reminded that i have it

thanks !!

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
6164 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:56 pm

Vertion wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:00 am
...Most customers catch on to this, and the market will eventually sort itself out as only companies that respect this balance survives the long haul.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Hilarious! You must be a deeply indoctrinated libertarian who doesn’t actually pay attention to how the world runs in actual practice.

Exactly how long of a “long haul” are we supposed to wait? Long enough that I can’t enjoy it? Then it will also be long enough that the people who “know better” will die off and therefore exit the market as customers and have no impact, while the new and inexperienced customers will be indoctrinated into whatever the immortal corporations tell them is “fine”, and the few individual customers who rebel will be beaten on by the indoctrinated customers who think it’s all “fine”, and nothing will ever change.

If a moderator thinks this is too HPC a response, please have the courtesy to SPLIT this to a new thread because this is exactly the kind of info that needs to survive over time so the few who rebel against immortal corporations aren’t as alone as the indoctrinated customers want them to think they are.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
6164 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:59 pm

Vertion wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:10 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:03 am
Go tell that to Avid or Steinberg.
My husband and I have spent a lot of money over the years on many software products. Yet we have never purchased a single thing from either of the companies you mentioned, nor will I buy any further products from NI.

Another thread is currently staying afloat with this thread regarding a list of companies that only do serialkey. That speaks for itself, I’d say.
That is anecdotal. Show us some statistics backed by deep and wide (and well-cited) data.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
6164 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:02 pm

Matt_NI wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:34 am
imrae wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:34 am
It would also be nice to know if lessons have been learned from the underlying mistake (i.e. writing plugins with unmaintainable copy-protection code and no fallback version). Or will this happen again to plugins based on some of the Native Access methods?

Also, what happens if NI goes under? (Or, more likely, is bought up by a clueless Gibson-like entity and closed arbitrarily.)
Yes we already had one long retro session but once we accomplished everything we need regarding this activation issue then we will look back at everything and learn from it. This doesn't stop at product based topics but also communication, support ...
This should’ve been done before, by the people who made up NI when the language for permanent license was added to the license agreement. That it is only being addressed now tells us that the company isn’t who it was, and/or that the EULA language was hollow from day one.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Aloysius
KVRAF
28283 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from another dimension

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:03 pm

Image

Some statistics.
Hi-de-Hi!

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
6164 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:28 am
Why would they? What's the point in releasing old tech, which isn't even sure to run fine on newer computers, and which the least people will still be able to use, because it's 32-bit? What exactly is the point? Even Steinberg released their old VST plugins from the stone age as 64-bit. THAT'S the way to do it, if then, not showcasing your plugins with old, possible broken tech.

I think musicians really should stick to making music, they simply suck in business things...
Your contributions to this thread seem to amount to defending corporatism and furthering the “us vs them” mentality of “superior business” and “inferior customer”. Why do you think corporations need you to do this? What’s YOUR line of work that you’re so defensive of corporate interests and so hostile to customers wanting to NOT be screwed by corporations?
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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