Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

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Trancit
KVRAF
2742 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:18 am

Caine123 wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:52 pm
Hey guys sorry i needed to be more specific. Especially with mangling samples. I saw how easy someone showed on youtube a dubsteb tutorial making drops and so one with a sample pitching, warping, taking a portion of it and stretching, copy paate etc. Also building a nice texture and blending. It looked so easy and fluid i love sound designing with mangling samples and this sounded great i will look for the vid again

starting 40 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhQrKWj1HiY
For this kind of workflow: definetely YES!!!
Ableton started exactly with this type of audio mangling in mind (beside aligning any audio to different tempos) and for this kind of audio mangling it is still king...
Bitwig follows imho on the second place but there is still some work to do before it is on par with Ableton...

If others refer to Reaper or other linear DAWs it´s mostly for other tasks like comping, Melodyne editing... typical band recording stuff but nothing still beats Ableton in terms of real audio mangling imho...
Even if Reaper is able to do this kind of stuff it´s much more complicated to do because of not having an editor window, no big choice of different time stretch algos (not even resample mode) and you would have to learn an awful lot of keyboard shortcuts and build up a bunch of macros yourself to be able to work fluid in this way...
Ableton offers this all directly out of the box with very neat features...
The here mentioned itme fx are very easy to workaround by splitting the audio onto different tracks which isn´t really hard to do... so this wouldn´t be a key element to me neither...

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GaryG
KVRAF
5970 posts since 13 Jan, 2003 from Kent, UK

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:19 am

I find Reaper better if you want to tear apart audio, generally throw it about without thinking too much (it does stand for Rapid Environment for Audio Production, Engineering, and Recording after all ;) ). I'll stick my neck out and say it's nearer to a dedicated audio editor than most DAWs once you get your workflow sorted, shortcuts etc. But Ableton's got better over the years and if the rest of the workflow suits you then it should do just fine.

(edit: context: Reaper and Ableton are the only DAWs I use, I like them both a lot so not fanboi-ing or anything)
()_()
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Trancit
KVRAF
2742 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:35 am

GaryG wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:19 am
...once you get your workflow sorted, shortcuts etc. ...
So to speak after a year or so... 8)
.... (it does stand for Rapid Environment for Audio Production, Engineering, and Recording after all ;) ). ...
For mangling of audio I don´t find it that rapid because of the long preparation time...
Sometimes I like if some devs already have done the nasty work for me... :tu:

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antic604
KVRAF
5118 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:39 am

Yes, I'd say Live is the best for quick audio mangling - you have tools & shortcuts for cutting stuff, reversing & stretching available and there's additional parameters for stretching algorithms, their perameters, pitch, etc. exposed for quick automation. In practice Bitwig has all of this too, but you need to dive into the Editor window and the pieces are spread in sub menus, instead of all being out there on the front. Even adding stretch markers is more elaborate, as transients are detected and edited in one menu, but to actually move (stretch) the audio you need to switch to a different menu :(
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

Trancit
KVRAF
2742 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:58 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:39 am
... as transients are detected and edited in one menu, ...
And from my experience, the transient detection in Bitwig has still a far way to go...
If I load up the same files into Bitwig and Ableton, I mostly have to manually edit all transients markers (onsets) in Bitwig as they are placed wrong but not a single one (or very rarely) in Ableton...
That´s why I put Bitwig on the second place...

Nevertheless has Bitwig the better timestretch implementation (the new ones sound really fantastic) and even more choices... but as said it needs far more tweaking and it lacks of some workflow enhancements

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antic604
KVRAF
5118 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:04 am

Trancit wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:58 am
antic604 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:39 am
... as transients are detected and edited in one menu, ...
And from my experience, the transient detection in Bitwig has still a far way to go...
If I load up the same files into Bitwig and Ableton, I mostly have to manually edit all transients markers (onsets) in Bitwig as they are placed wrong but not a single one (or very rarely) in Ableton...
That´s why I put Bitwig on the second place...
Not only that, but you can't (automatically) quantize audio to grid using transients and there's no way to dial in sensitivity of the detection algorithm. You're generous putting Bitwig on 2nd place :)
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

Trancit
KVRAF
2742 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:10 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:04 am
...You're generous putting Bitwig on 2nd place :)
I know, I have a soft heart... :D

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
4223 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:11 am

Clearly no!
Its just that more people are into Live and thus more videos are on YT.
Better ask yourself which tool fits to your workflow best and even more important which tool inspires you to creative mangling. For me its first Max/MSP, and second Bitwig.
That is strange isn't it? Max is integrated into Live, but Live never clicked with me. This is a purely personal choice.
Don't watch too many videos, better get your hands dirty and figure out what is most fun, easiest to learn or whatever criteria is important for you.

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Distorted Horizon
KVRAF
3854 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:14 am

Bitwig, reaper, reason.. At least for me those offer much better tools for audio manipulation.

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antic604
KVRAF
5118 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:24 am

Distorted Horizon wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:14 am
Bitwig, reaper, reason.. At least for me those offer much better tools for audio manipulation.
I can understand Reason, because it has excellent pitch editor and comping, audio quantizing, time stretching right in the sequencer, even audio-to-MIDI for monophonic stuff. I don't know Reaper enough.

But Bitwig? The only thing I can think of that it has over Live in this area is the ability to edit audio right in the clips in Clip Launcher. What else??
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

V0rtex
KVRist
54 posts since 6 May, 2015

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:31 am

I am using Ableton like for 5 years, and when u get used to it you are really fast with audio.
But i think there is better DAWS for audio manipulation.

For example u can not edit multiple fades at once in Ableton live 9, i do not know about Live 10.

Cheers.

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
4223 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:33 am

Finally I watched the video from 40 min. Those sort of manipulations are possible in any DAW or audio editor. Nothing really fancy about it, especially if your taste likes those harsh sounds. You just need to know what you are after and what kind of results you get out of what manipulation of a sample.
As I said before, personal work flows determine more what is the best tool for you. Features are only a part of the game. I would even say an overrated part... Specific flaws of or strength of a tool like the mentioned transient detection (which has only a little to do with the original question btw.) are only important for specific work flows, tastes, genres...
As soon you decide to get deeper into learning your tool, you will always find also workarounds for the weaker points. It will not hinder you to create great music, and might even help to get into creative solutions...

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
4223 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:43 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:24 am
But Bitwig? The only thing I can think of that it has over Live in this area is the ability to edit audio right in the clips in Clip Launcher. What else??
Audio rate modulation! If you never used it you simply don't know what you are missing in terms of mangling sound. And then move it into the Grid, the possibilities will overwhelm you for the rest of your life...
If it does not inspire you, of course that would not help...
The video only showed what I would call a bit boring creating effects baked into samples. The two guys even did not bother to trigger samples with an expressive controller. That means each trigger sounds exactly the same. If you get into modulation, each trigger could sound a bit different, and much more alive. All that of course is also possible in Live, even in ProTools you could do that (beware though you would look very professional and dumb at the same time...; - )

tooneba
KVRian
1358 posts since 6 Nov, 2012

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:46 am

Caine123 wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:52 pm
Hey guys sorry i needed to be more specific. Especially with mangling samples. I saw how easy someone showed on youtube a dubsteb tutorial making drops and so one with a sample pitching, warping, taking a portion of it and stretching, copy paate etc. Also building a nice texture and blending. It looked so easy and fluid i love sound designing with mangling samples and this sounded great i will look for the vid again

starting 40 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhQrKWj1HiY
Live is like Acid 2.0

Caine123
KVRAF
6259 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Re: Is ABLETON the best daw for audio manipluation?

Post Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:47 am

Thanks a lot guys. In fl studio you cannot instantly change like that audio clips. You always have to create uniques, fiddly use automations and a seperate editor and reimport etc. :/
I still got reaper but never got into it.... maybe i just need more patience with it if it is already on par with ableton, it just didnt motivated me so far to work with it much ;D
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