3.2 speculations

[machinesworking]

My issue with this is that one, anyone who googles how to do this in Logic may find your post and be terribly misinformed because of you biased and frankly uneducated opinion being posted as fact and two, long time Logic users know how to do all of this because it's worked that way since at least Logic 6 or 7. Not sure why it's an issue now "for a long time Logic user".

You seriously can't be reasoned with.

Logic's method is easily more convoluted than the rest, there's nothing to argue about. It doesn't make it a terrible DAW, it just makes it a bit harder to set up if you're new at it. You basically calling me stupid and a liar isn't helping your case at all. It has not been that way since 6 or 7, but whatever I'm done talking to you about this.

Sure. It is. OMG! Its so convoluted and hard to do.


Screen Shot 2020-04-09 at 3.58.02 PM.png

Convoluted yes, difficult no.

I stopped responding to this because we're stinking up a Bitwig thread with Logic talk that barely relates to Bitwig. The initial setup is never what I was talking about, it's setting up more MIDI tracks etc, because they're not really "midi tracks" showing audio for whatever reason in the Arrange page etc. Aux assignment is in a submenu instead of the main Tracks menu where all other track types are, and all this is dead easy in the other DAWs without "assistants". It again goes back to the way Logic treats MIDI with soft instruments.

In general the point wasn't whether it's "possible" or not, it's what is a DAWs weak and strong points? Personally I think that the script in Live for MPE, or DP10's fairly easy assistants for setting up 16 tracks in ascending channels in no way makes those DAWs as straightforward MPE wise as Bitwig, Reaper or even Logic with it's channel limitations software instrument wise.
Same as the point about Live, Live does't have built in comping, but you can make do, it's in no way as fast or as easy to use as DP or Logic.

Anyway I think a lot of internet arguments at this point are partially due to boredom...

[machinesworking]

You know what I would really love in Bitwig? if keyboard shortcuts weren't interrupted by the Information window. If that window is selected then the shortcuts for other windows don't work. Setting up shortcuts for narrow view and to toggle track inputs, they stop working if you select the Information window. Only DAW I've worked in that has this issue.

[antic604]

You know what I would really love in Bitwig? if keyboard shortcuts weren't interrupted by the Information window. If that window is selected then the shortcuts for other windows don't work. Setting up shortcuts for narrow view and to toggle track inputs, they stop working if you select the Information window. Only DAW I've worked in that has this issue.

So much this! I started noticing it more recently, because I try to use keyboard more. There are even instances where key won't work if you select track and no clips ON a track That's another instance (after clip containers) where they've overdone it.

[shadiradio]

You know what I would really love in Bitwig? if keyboard shortcuts weren't interrupted by the Information window. If that window is selected then the shortcuts for other windows don't work. Setting up shortcuts for narrow view and to toggle track inputs, they stop working if you select the Information window. Only DAW I've worked in that has this issue.

So much this! I started noticing it more recently, because I try to use keyboard more. There are even instances where key won't work if you select track and no clips ON a track That's another instance (after clip containers) where they've overdone it.

I wish that all DAW companies had to release an annual album using only their DAW, and that partially drove internal features.

EDIT: And it was a YouTube series from start to finish.

[antic604]

I wish that all DAW companies had to release an annual album using only their DAW, and that partially drove internal features.

I don't think it's that easy. It's just that if you use something frequently and long enough, you don't see the workarounds or weird things anymore.

I remember reading an interview with Live devs around release of v10 and they were describing how they were watching some of the users struggling to move around the project (scroll, zoom in), I'm pressumig by dragging that top bar on their laptops; so they decided to implement some enhancements, incl. touchpad gestures. I was like "are you f**king kidding me???!!!" - that was an obvious issue for ANYONE using your software! How come you didn't see it??!! And then it occurred to me that yeah - they've been doing it that way for so long that doing it any OTHER way seemed weird and unnatural for them. For them it was obvious that this is the way you do it, like it's obvious that you use FX Rack to have parallel FX chains.

So I'd change your premise - they should do an album in OTHER DAWs and then come back to Bitwig to see what they can improve

[shadiradio]

I don't think it's that easy. It's just that if you use something frequently and long enough, you don't see the workarounds or weird things anymore.

That's true, excellent point.

So I'd change your premise - they should do an album in OTHER DAWs and then come back to Bitwig to see what they can improve

YES.

I was coming from the perspective of game engines, where a company like Epic has released AAA games, and this drives their engine (the features trickle down into the dev tool). Unity on the other hand assumes a lot of workflows are no problem, until major high profile development studios bring up the pain points.

[apoclypse]

Oh never mind. Its not getting us anywhere.

[apoclypse]

My issue with this is that one, anyone who googles how to do this in Logic may find your post and be terribly misinformed because of you biased and frankly uneducated opinion being posted as fact and two, long time Logic users know how to do all of this because it's worked that way since at least Logic 6 or 7. Not sure why it's an issue now "for a long time Logic user".

You seriously can't be reasoned with.

Logic's method is easily more convoluted than the rest, there's nothing to argue about. It doesn't make it a terrible DAW, it just makes it a bit harder to set up if you're new at it. You basically calling me stupid and a liar isn't helping your case at all. It has not been that way since 6 or 7, but whatever I'm done talking to you about this.

Sure. It is. OMG! Its so convoluted and hard to do.


Screen Shot 2020-04-09 at 3.58.02 PM.png

Convoluted yes, difficult no.

Care to give an example? Just to keep this move relevant to Bitwig. How is Bitwig different in how it uses multis? What does convoluted mean exactly?

[machinesworking]

My issue with this is that one, anyone who googles how to do this in Logic may find your post and be terribly misinformed because of you biased and frankly uneducated opinion being posted as fact and two, long time Logic users know how to do all of this because it's worked that way since at least Logic 6 or 7. Not sure why it's an issue now "for a long time Logic user".

You seriously can't be reasoned with.

Logic's method is easily more convoluted than the rest, there's nothing to argue about. It doesn't make it a terrible DAW, it just makes it a bit harder to set up if you're new at it. You basically calling me stupid and a liar isn't helping your case at all. It has not been that way since 6 or 7, but whatever I'm done talking to you about this.

Sure. It is. OMG! Its so convoluted and hard to do.


Screen Shot 2020-04-09 at 3.58.02 PM.png

Convoluted yes, difficult no.

I stopped responding to this because we're stinking up a Bitwig thread with Logic talk that barely relates to Bitwig. The initial setup is never what I was talking about, it's setting up more MIDI tracks etc, because they're not really "midi tracks" showing audio for whatever reason in the Arrange page etc. Aux assignment is in a submenu instead of the main Tracks menu where all other track types are, and all this is dead easy in the other DAWs without "assistants". It again goes back to the way Logic treats MIDI with soft instruments.

In general the point wasn't whether it's "possible" or not, it's what is a DAWs weak and strong points? Personally I think that the script in Live for MPE, or DP10's fairly easy assistants for setting up 16 tracks in ascending channels in no way makes those DAWs as straightforward MPE wise as Bitwig, Reaper or even Logic with it's channel limitations software instrument wise.
Same as the point about Live, Live does't have built in comping, but you can make do, it's in no way as fast or as easy to use as DP or Logic.

Anyway I think a lot of internet arguments at this point are partially due to boredom...

But you keep "stinking up the thread" to have the last word. You keep saying it's convoluted but then go on to give an example that's not even accurate to how Logic works. Please stop spreading nonsense. if you don't know how to use Logic jus say so and move on.

Again, the point is and always has been if you do not know how to use Logic, it's method of setting up multi instruments is convoluted compared to DP, Live, Bitwig, even Reaper. Sorry this seems to upset you so much, but again, you saying "if you don't know how to use Logic jus say so and move on" is patently ridiculous in context. You can't just give the patented "the thing that is broken is between the chair and the PC" answer to an accusation of UX shortcomings.

I bolded my explanation of why I think Logic is convoluted multi instrument set up wise. It took a few google searches to find out how to get extra MIDI and Aux tracks for extra outputs from Kontakt. I'm currently setting up a template in Logic for orchestra, so this isn't just me picking on Logic etc. I used Logic exclusively from 4.7 to around 8, and do not remember it having a "helper" for multi instruments. So I'm obviously a noob when it comes to Logics to me, new way, and it has all kinds of UX bizarreness' that will send you for a loop. A great example is how it represents the main stereo audio metering out of the main Kontakt instrument on every "software midi channel" in the Arrange and Mixer windows, when using Aux outs the audio metering does not show up on all tracks like this. I can't see any rational reason this should be the case, it's a leftover from these "midi" tracks being unique to Logic and how Logic handles software instruments. In most other DAWs I use, a generic MIDI track can be assigned to a software instruments MIDI channels, not so in Logic.

To relate this back to Bitwig, it's also a bit odd, and apparently we just happen to work with different DAWs this way. You're used to DAWs that handle software instruments without addressing a universal bussing system, I'm not. DP10 and Live both use a more universal bussing system, you address a tracks MIDI or audio inputs and outputs without it being in a submenu selection, a plug in selection (audio outs in Kontakt for Bitwig) etc. None of this is that important in the bigger picture, eventually you learn any method, but Logics method isn't straight forward, there's no denying that. I'm seriously not able to grasp why this upsets you so much? Most of the time when someone is confused by a DAWs way of doing things that I'm comfortable in, I tend to offer solutions, you offered the Set Up wizard thing for multi instruments, but didn't address anything I've mentioned about setting up auxes etc. past initial set up, just condescending remarks. This is why I was done talking to you, you're angry for no real reason and not offering anything to the conversation but bitterness.

[machinesworking]

You know what I would really love in Bitwig? if keyboard shortcuts weren't interrupted by the Information window. If that window is selected then the shortcuts for other windows don't work. Setting up shortcuts for narrow view and to toggle track inputs, they stop working if you select the Information window. Only DAW I've worked in that has this issue.

So much this! I started noticing it more recently, because I try to use keyboard more. There are even instances where key won't work if you select track and no clips ON a track That's another instance (after clip containers) where they've overdone it.

Yeah that no clips track, super frustrating as a noob to Bitwig, it stuck me a few times. Live has a limited keyboard shortcut ability, stunted compared to Bitwig, so it's the first thing I've enjoyed in Bitwig is the shortcuts, but they have issues for sure.

[Kypresso]

Will all you feuding logic users piss off to a logic forum somewhere else, where i'm sure everyone there will be more pleased to see you than we are.

[jarnold]

Seems like a long time since the last Bitwig update, the final non beta version of 3.1 was released late December (21st I think) so that's pushing on for four months now.. come on Bitwig we need new toys!

[machinesworking]

Will all you feuding logic users piss off to a logic forum somewhere else, where i'm sure everyone there will be more pleased to see you than we are.

You must be new here, I don't know of any DAW related news article here that doesn't have a ton of cross talk and comparisons to other DAWs that may or may not even be related to the DAW in question. It's the KVR way™.


There is some relevance here, I don't think Bitwig is that clear cut either, at first things are... weird? In other DAWs it's not the subwindow, DAW specific plug in interface GUI, that handles Multi audio out from a VSTi, at least not the ones I use. Most of the ones I've used present available audio ins/outs from a VSTi in the main bus. Even Reaper has a bussing map of all available ins and outs from your audio card, VSTi's etc. I haven't found anything similar in Bitwig, more than willing to look like the noob I am here, but it seems that the bussing in Bitwig is mostly available specific to devices that can use them? So the Kontakt device panel is where you route audio out etc. It's not that big of a deal, but it's pretty specific to Bitwig that it's a routing you do directly on the device for the plug in.

Like I said I'm used to Live and DP10, and both address audio outs as well as MIDI from a VSTi, with vanilla MIDI and audio tracks, that can address the MIDI channels and audio outs from the main bus.

[antic604]

...but it seems that the bussing in Bitwig is mostly available specific to devices that can use them? So the Kontakt device panel is where you route audio out etc. It's not that big of a deal, but it's pretty specific to Bitwig that it's a routing you do directly on the device for the plug in.

In most DAWs a track can only contain one instrument, therefore routing can be presented on track level. In Bitwig - using Instrument Layer or Instrument Selector - you can have multiple instruments on single track, therefore the routing has to be made available on the device level

But it's also more logical I guess. It's the Kontakt that's multi-out, not the track it's housed on.

[machinesworking]

...but it seems that the bussing in Bitwig is mostly available specific to devices that can use them? So the Kontakt device panel is where you route audio out etc. It's not that big of a deal, but it's pretty specific to Bitwig that it's a routing you do directly on the device for the plug in.

In most DAWs a track can only contain one instrument, therefore routing can be presented on track level. In Bitwig - using Instrument Layer or Instrument Selector - you can have multiple instruments on single track, therefore the routing has to be made available on the device level

But it's also more logical I guess. It's the Kontakt that's multi-out, not the track it's housed on.

Thanks for the reply, that makes total sense. I forget about that aspect of Bitwig, it's a bit alien to me, but makes perfect sense in a bigger picture. Even so it would be cool if Bitwig exposed it's bussing like Reaper and DP do, no big deal, a lot of DAWs don't.