FM in MSoundFactory like in Serum or Phase Plant

[_TIP_]

Hi, I'm trying to FM from one WaveTable Oscillator to another in MSF and get the same audible results like in Serum. So far I've tried to match a simple FM patch (see video below) with the Oscillator Shaper, the Custom Mod, the Merger and the FM module but I can't get it to sound the same. I would really appreciate it if someone could help me here. Thanks!

Edit: new video comparing all 3 synths, skip to 1:47 for audio comparison. Also, a patch from Vojtech that sounds way closer to Serum and Phase Plant.

Code: Select all

$eNrVmFtT4zYUgN-zKzRipk+7G9u5wdR2h0tCmWKSJSHQR2GfJC6y5MoyJfvQ396RZJuQkNi7pQ99AVv+ztG5RTqS+8tLQtEziCzmzMP2FwsjYCGPYrb0cC4Xn4-xL37LDaY8Z9GIhJKLdQZSxmyZoSMP2xgdXVL+SGg2I4-m-WtOaCzXHh6+SAEJYHSeCwFMTgRkIK8uPHx0Nx3eHv09539ICFdoFGA0jGLJxTT+Bh62u-2TTyfOYHN0SLK1h+1+1-lkW04Po1+-3qUZSVKqbbUwuo6TWILQRlzfTlMaSwla1vaw0++cbA87Gg3Iy-VofEZ5+GRmd6zuMUYTIgilQONvRJrgYPQ64XixoDFTpvYxmpfxOznuOCd97LvT-HFC82XMipD5rnmdvg3dnqmnQCGUEBkZD9ufLFxqyMoHdEbY0znPmdSqRjmlNyQBD9+TZ5iRRwpOr4-0JNnTFdMRUo-jXHrYwWgXxuhBq-pdsb6r9FvtPZYfTWIZrs45pSTNIDJjM0FYtuAi2Rq-Y3HG2ZCpebY+zTnNlR3qWdlSONTbFxvfna5ICjaazoaTye1wOpwpa9vFuLM1jp4JzbX6kujUEt09unv7JDsKab8NUzVQm66AyBVyXtPkvJcmBWE0zmWayysWwYultWwM2B7+bG9k0K7NoP65eNi2MDoKeAQePo0iFHKWScKkSvGBGm1-p4OdD3fQ+QEHg5zKOKVr9LjectT60vsAV001o59Ikv6MJoRxQRKy+Rt81-c5pxPC3vG+8rVT6+slUQuF0-2ofNkfnq-uj+SLRznlu9n6iLK8BAaCSDjPM8mTgEe1Pl8COw94dChRvVong1zCxzjwZp133qzze9Z2S9vY-6G1fXIfaAXqwSRnsiIZ7Fn1rcOrfrOVPhhfqNnQq-MXkMqVWdturY3xTISWh00mkV7J24Xw-3C-aFcb-S6z01e0NlqNh3-XZVibXUb78OwPfss9lZKET7bvDtkzUJ4CGt7MS3cd7WOJlLBTDzsV3KmHOxXcrYe7Fdyrh3sV3K+H+xU8qIcHFXxcDx-7LcXYvjsTkHDKdWXtFlxbQ5p1mrCOYTtN2I5hu03YrmF7TdieYftN2L5hB03YgWGPm7Aqvub4MmTPtQKvZMu9Ho1tdA1sqRYkB+-QmnBqiU4t0a0lerVEv5YY1BLHh4lbwiKe6EIttgN9bNosbLO7lWAp4jQVcSqRTlORTiXSbSqiKvg3WGchodDAm1f0VcxpLqZ8mgPlYSwbT7nFbylwvlPBpgXbaOtVlTq6Z7mAQ4jqGs6ARQ8HoIBH9ysAegCZxcmjgEH3AHImgMiV5RxAhi+pMjnmzLYPYNM8kyRmB4gbLmG8WOwSlzSOwCwVO9+uR+PMV38tNBLwZw4sXJu9WLdONyo5VO22RJAEJAjd190StgTVKaNq3HRy+lX1p3PTQljF0xkJn-K0bDriJSP0nWZkzcKN366qAGWY+Zepyx11KqpmzPytAQtd3l2ZexhlvVOZ-9aZ8mCgWnZdeBhNUyiawXnZNJmnooEEEQKTWfM4FD07F+gz2nPWqr5sBEv3g2992hlRgTgNZfwM5pYKlS3rTICJuAqB6T3PiYQlF+srCckVW3A0IVn2FxeRh9Vc5eepJBJ89xKYgLbvmrpu++6pkHFYBEm90iUXsVwlbd8dAZG5AN1+bakp7tB27TKhwf-VvO1iYt89nZjQ6PZkI1QqciJFt0SdbNSxPCBSxC8bsEhVmekwO8icCHRd+O44lwG6iLOUknVAXuIkT4qM3ceRXKn+neciBDQRsIipBFHc9im9JdIuVPstt-3eTWXmt-4BJwGJqQ==

[dakkra]

With FM Module:

Code: Select all

$eNqdmE1zszYQx+-+FBrlmsSWEAbPAG1enDbT+LEb8iTpUbFlm4mQGBBJ3EM-e0fCJhYJNq0PHiR+uyvt-hESwS8fKQdvLC8SKUKIzgcQMDGXi0SsQliq5ZkPf4l6wSSWpVjc0LmS+aZgSiViVYCTECIITn6jiZiWKoRnzrkzGHj+cDgceCN9hycLdsHf6abYoly+UF480JeqPV0uC6ZQCM8Qrps4hGdu3XJC6NUNEsI90A0hGtWtYQgxgeDkUSbzRKx2Ma7KPGdCzXJWMHV7HUIzFbBgRbISQLE041Sx4p9r+vqaU3DNlrTkCoLxIlEyj5O-WQiR66NT30f7vWNabEKIhmR46g+GEPz+58+soGnGTeoGENzdxxlPlGIGRyFEhIya3diM8XFXgBHyXezDKIjLlxkvV4nY5jwKqmZs5z5mnM0VW1Q3Qzg4HcAdWuwuwCUVr1eyFMrY6NbPbEEVm8xCWCdId5v7NyXnP2jKQngzAQiCCS1eb4WZ0q4bgmfT-kv-R4E2HfRbhnhyzTK1DqGp6FzRN1bocutWth2Uqeij5Mg4PZk+Y311TkZDGAWT6bXpAZ8z2HpEMAruB3v9RT4fhPDuZgoQ7EdBf2caBX17aHVHfVF8x3wpQm+vLs8t8-2it3Gaqc13pULks1b9w-Gfo15woRSdv6IoGIs3xmXGwPjH4+x+HI8fdAq1hx2yg-FxGNewcxx2apgch0kNu8dht4aHx+FhDXvHYa+G-eOwH-U0g6LgIWep5DJe04yB+GE82+EDgxvIsLgLiyvW6cI6FUu6sKRi3S6sW7HDLuywYr0urFexfhdW57d6B4zFG6hybh76uCwU1Y8FgmDr5p4qppcBz-ORi7A7wAjDo0Fq71EvuLuZInCZZJLT3HgeC-rC2cJcV+6d89H25xMXNvyBN8pLVi0004zlVCVSFGC2poUZGSa+6zme6yGnWnB0wCouBndMrPQqhTuF6ldmzv8zI-tm3xLuUWJ4lPCOEv5h4p6KhUzNw0VFsZR5ajK6-zD6Jo87cGeCu5rg2sTpauLUJqSriX7q-mCbYk456zCbT-TTDHc303N6ZFzOE9U5ZINvOMD-0cH+CPZRVJW19qXfeUWZs6a7fSRR8-UlE4vnA9BELp7WjPEDyEOSvuTMIweQy5xRtR7gA8j4I9NDTqRA6AC2XZwOED+kYtPl8ithdsBmrYqCmUyEAjecropLvRvUS90mYyG8luULZ9Wm5TgEPsz6pTef2xWvDtELrqRQueSc5QWIE7Hi7GpNhWC82ql93tb7pt212WHvr40zmtOUKZZXGz7TBNhxdLxPM3Tcxm2YYCsqQh3CGpHtuXAaLpwuPojtgzR8kC4+XNuHa-sYdEkhsl0MGy5GHVyMbBdeYyadMurZPnzLB-a7RR7ZVqOO5UO28JxBm10jVwjZdq2Tww07W3IObrNritvWmeN0lBayteWQjnJCtp4ct2PxkC0iZ9hm5zfsbOU4Xptdo+zIVovTphbcrLutF6dNL7hRd2zrhbTpBTfqjm29kPZVrWFn64W06aW5GGJbL6RNL05DL9jWC2nTi9PQC7b1Qtr04gwbdrZeSJteSLMOtl5Im15Isw62XkibXkgzn7ZeSJteSCOfjq0Xt00vpJFPx9aL26YXYvLZ33vP6vPlXCVvrDrygyvJOc0K9pAzZk4R+ptRdYi4ooqtZL65VSy9FUsJLkq1lnkIq49PEIwnNOEhnEuh6Fz9ujDd53OZQqD5EF5yKl7BNXtL5uwUvMtcrYGQap2IlR5wUbzLfKG-6jw9PYXw-f39fM+HnnD1deLrIKs5xhuh1n0TpIpxnt6KQuVlyoTam0CsqGJRUO3CQJykGTfnpH4UXPCVzBO1TkFcvqicmtRs790wqsqcFSYl+i2128M0-Pa3w4yCi1mVVXNE38uyTnqebY9IWnK9YKJLVeAomJZqAq6TIuN0M6EfSVqm29PhU7JQ60kUxLLM5wzMcrZMuGL59pOdDrJD+jt3vaD-3dfPIur9Cw3Sv0g=

With Merger:

Code: Select all

$eNq1WNFy4ygWffdXUOS1ExuELLlKcm8SOzupjdueOJ30PhIb26og0CCUxPuw374FshWhbsWamdo8pAScey73crgGoq-vKQevTOWJFDFEFwMImFjJdSK2MSz05jyEX8e9aLaUhVjf0JWWap8zrROxzcFZDBEEZ-+kiZgXOobn3oU3GAThcDgcBCMzwpM1u+RvdJ8foFw+U54-0OeyPd9scqZRDM8Rrpo4hud+1fJiGFQNEsMa0I8hGlWtYQwxgeDsUSarRGyPPq4LpZjQC8Vypm8nMbShgDXLk60AmqUZp5rl-53QlxdFwYRtaME1BNN1oqVaJv9hMUR+iL6EIar3Tmm+jyEakuGXcDCE4Lffv2c5TTNuUzeA4O5+mfFEa2bhKIaIkFGzG9s5Ph4XYIRCH4dwHC2L5wUvtok45Hwclc2lm-sl42yl2bocjOHgC4ZHaH78AFdUvHzP1lSz2SKGENwUnH+jKYvhPF8lnFMtFUAQzGj+civs5JvDEPyw-f82-1smc-ZdJLkUU0GfObuWnNMsZ+ty6FHywjAiE9uOZgwsH6aLxf10OX0wlP1x1HdJqw4njGtZCG0pOwWFnaDMpxUqbgkQVQEa9kH-bwQ6uPDREI6j2Xxy6AMfc5+wTO-KZNwPav25Wg1ieHczB8hm5MP4-5W1w+4w3Xb8I4szprbMyuJWZIW+FWv2jizGtpeaUT5otMvxY8a946cds+06NQTzQteYz1FNZPjkGlQ5BGcTtX9i5bKe3czMtpoVvGzO5JrF8EaxPwomVnuQynXBqU6kMHXDFL5qy6JaOquP-FcZ-mlz9mr79UfLhH+qQ9M00-tfbWFEPvZw-3P-P8a96FJrunpB42gqXhmXGQPTb49HjWAb1BFyBOPTYFyBvdNgrwKT02BSgf3TYL8CD0+DhxU4OA0OKnB4GhyOewaDxtGDYqnksm03WpDF4i5YXGK9LlivxJIuWFJi-S5Yv8QOu2CHJTbogg1KbNgFa-Jbng2m4hWUObelYFnkmpptgSA40NxTbetrEITIR9gfYGSqxQknFfu4F93dzBG4SjLJqbLMZSUvK3hJ712MDn8h8WGDD7xSXhx+zOYZU7ae5GCxo7mdGSahH3iBHyCvLCrGYekXgzsmtqZw4U6u+qWZ99fMSN3slwj-JGJ4EhGcRISfI+6pWMvUbi4q8o1Uqc1ofTOGNo9H4NEEdzXBlYnX1cSrTEhXE7Pr-sX2+Ypy1iGaD+iHGe5uZmJ6ZFyuEt3ZZQPfIMB-kqA+gzoUlctacZnfvLxQrElXhyR6tbtiYv3jE9BMrp92jPFPIA9J+qxYQD6BXClG9W6AP4FM3zMz5UQKhD6BHYrTJ4hvUrP5ZvMzwt6MbK0aRwuZCA1uON3mV+aWYErdPmMxnMjimbPyLHgaBN5t-dofTzI1F73oWgqtJOdM5WCZiC1n1zsqBOPlcfdj2BxHj9-25lWvjQuqaMo0U+U5zjYB9jzj78MMnbbxGybY8YpQB7dWZDUKr0HhdeEgLgdpcJAuHL7L4bscgy4pRC7FsEEx6kAxcimCRiSdMhq4HKHDgcNunkeu1ajj8iFXeN6gza6RK4Rcu9bgcMPOlZyH2+ya4nZ15nkdpYVcbXmko5yQqyfP77h4yBWRN2yzCxt2rnK8oM2usezIVYvXphbcXHdXL16bXnBj3bGrF9KmF9xYd+zqhbRXtYadqxfSppdmMcSuXkibXryGXrCrF9KmF6+hF+zqhbTpxRs27Fy9kDa9kOY6uHohbXohzXVw9ULa9EKa+XT1Qtr0Qhr59Fy9+G16IY18eq5e-Da9EJvPfu131twvVzp5ZeWVHxwfih4UY-YWYd4Sy0vENdVsK9X+VrP0VmwkuCz0TqoYlo+SEExnNOExXEmh6Ur-Y227L1YyNa8vGxnDK07FC5iw12TFvoA3qfQOCKl3idiaCef5m1Rr8+Dz9PQUw7e3t4sahwm4fJ34eZJljMu90Lu+dVL6uEhvRa5VkTKhawEsNdVsHJWnMLBM0ozbe1J-HF3yrVSJ3qVgWTxrRW1qDmM3jOpCsdymxPxKHc8wDd7+YZrj6HJRZtVe0WtZNklX2eGKZCTXi2ZmqXI8juaFnoFJkmec7mf0PUmL9HA7fErWejcbR0tZqBUDC8U2CddMHZ5yjZMjpH+k60X9X72K5+Pe-wBOQW66

OscShaper (psuedo using hard sync):

Code: Select all

$eNqdmN9zqygUx9-zVzD0tbcJiMbMqHf7I93tbHOTbXrb7iM1JHGKkFFsm33Yv30HTKzYmri3D50An3MO5-AVweD7e8rBK8vyRIoQorMBBEzEcpGIVQgLtfzmw+9RL5jMZSEW1zRWMtvmTKlErHJwEkIEwcnvNBHTQoXwm3PmDAZD3-O8wXCkR3iyYOf8jW7zHcrlM+X5PX0u29PlMmcKhfAbwlUTh-CbW7WcEA6rBglhDXRDiEZVywshJhCcPMgkTsRqH+OyyDIm1CxjOVM3VyE0qYAFy5OVAIqlG04Vy-+9oi8vGQVXbEkLriAYLxIls3nyDwshcn106vuo3jum+TaEyCPeqT-wIPjjr5+bnKYbbko3gOD2br7hiVLM4CiEiJBRsxubOdYtcb05XS55Ipjpfdiv0gj5LvZhFMyL5xkvVonYLUwUlM25vUBzxlms2KIcDOHgFME9mu9-gAsqXn5uFlSxySyEEFwXnP+gKQvhNI8TzqmSGUAQTGj+ciNMhs1hCJ5M-9-6f8tkTn6KJJdiLOgzZ5eSc7rJ2UIPRcF8TTcMzO-Hs9ndeD6+1276UdC3HVUd1tQvZSGUidBMZCcA3W3Gv0rMRDbpVSNlVy0lPUPtZNBvS232ODGw-jGRCxbC+VbEMAom0yvdBz4mecU2ah3Cwdlo6MEouBvUxvIsHoTw9noKkEl-Z-0L9elXi-yZ+SSeXk1PTy0pfnqYxulGbb+UGPnQWP9w-KeoF5wrReMXFAVj8cq43DAw-vGwzxKbLPfIHsbHYVzBznHYqWByHCYV7B6H3Qr2jsNeBQ+Pw8MK9o-DftTTDIqC+4ylkss2PRnIsLgLi0vW6cI6JUu6sKRk3S6sW7JeF9Yr2WEXdliyfhdW17d8wY3FKyhrbvaDeZErqh8LBMHOzR1VTD-+w6GPXITdAUYYHg1SeY96we31FIFyGzXbJyhdOmej3Z9PXNjwAV4pL1i5lU03LKMqkSIHszXNzWwwGTm+P3SdgeuZgDpIGQuDWyZWes-CnUL1SzPn18xI3exLwj1KeEeJ4VHCP0zcUbGQqXmgqMiXMktNResPoG-quAf3JrirCa5MnK4mTmVCuproJ+1Pts1jylmHbD7QDzPc3Uzn9MC4jBPVOWSDbzjA-9NBfQZ1FJXLWvnS77m8yFjTXR1JVLy+YGLxdACayMXjmjF+ALlP0ueMDckB5CJjVK0H+AAyft-oKSdSIHQA221IB4gfUrHpcvmZMEd6sz9FwUwmQoFrTlf5hT7e6u1tu2EhvJLFM2fl8eU4BN7N-qVP07tdrgrRCy6lUJnknGU5mCdixdnlmgrBeHnG-BjWJ6j9b3NlqO+NM5rRlCmWlcc70wTYcXS8DzN03MZtmGArKkIdwhqR1Vw4DRdOFx-E9kEaPkgXH67tw7V9DLqUENkuvIaLUQcXI9vFsJFJp4oObR++5QP73SKPbKtRx+VDtvCcQZtdo1YI2XatyeGGnS05B7fZNcVt68xxOkoL2dpySEc5IVtPjttx8ZAtIsdrs-MbdrZynGGbXWPZka0Wp00tuLnutl6cNr3gxrpjWy+kTS+4se7Y1gtp39UadrZeSJtempshtvVC2vTiNPSCbb2QNr04Db1gWy+kTS+O17Cz9ULa9EKa62DrhbTphTTXwdYLadMLadbT1gtp0wtp1NOx9eK26YU06unYenHb9ELKk37tPavvlLFKXll5zQf7rzT3GWPmFqE-gpWXiEuq2Epm2xvF0huxlOC8UGuZhbD8mgbBeEITHsJYCkVj9dvCdJ-FMoVA8yG84FS8gCv2msTsFLzJTK2BkGqdiJWecJ6-yWyhP+M8Pj6G8O3t7azmQydcfpH4PMkyx-lWqHXfBCljnKU3IldZkTKhagnMFVUsCspTGJgn6Yabe1I-Cs75SmaJWqdgXjyrjJrS7MauGVVFxnJTEv2W2p9hGn77u2lGwfmsrKq5lteqrIuebXZXJC25XjDRS5XjKJgWagKuknzD6XZC35O0SHc3wsdkodb6y5AsspiBWcaWCVcs232D1EH2SH-vrhf0v-qcm0e9-wADLQhN

Seems the secret here is to increase the depth multiplier.

Also keep in mind that the FM module is the only module that's really doing "FM". The merger does vibrato to emulate fm, which is a spectral effect.

[Whywhy]

If you want phase modulation like in serum:
Osc/transform = phase modulate by an lfo with keytracking.

[_TIP_]

Seems the secret here is to increase the depth multiplier.

Also keep in mind that the FM module is the only module that's really doing "FM". The merger does vibrato to emulate fm, which is a spectral effect.

This is exactly what I was doing (all 3 methods you posted above) trying to get the same FM results as Serum & PhasePlant. Also, another 2 methods that I've tried and didn't do it as well, was with the "GenerateCustomMod" module and by just modulating the Phase of the Wavetable OSC in the Transform Panel as the user "Whywhy" mentioned.

If you want phase modulation like in serum:
Osc/transform = phase modulate by an lfo with keytracking.

Am I missing something here? I hope Vojtech himself, Chandler or another advanced user could possibly help here.
Anyway, thank you both (dakkra & Whywhy) for trying to help, I really appreciate it

[jmg8]

OK, so I watched the video. The FM module can definitely do what you want. Without checking in detail, it seems as though dakkra is right by saying turn up the depth multiplier. This can be found at the top of the FM module. Try it on 200% for a start. Is that closer to the sound you are expecting?

[_TIP_]

OK, so I watched the video. The FM module can definitely do what you want. Without checking in detail, it seems as though dakkra is right by saying turn up the depth multiplier. This can be found at the top of the FM module. Try it on 200% for a start. Is that closer to the sound you are expecting?

Unfortunately I can't even get the same results with the FM module... The problem for me though is that I would like to feed (modulate) the target OSC with a wavetable OSC instead of using one of the twelve static Waveforms that the FM module provides...
Thank you for trying to help as well jmg8

[jmg8]

In the video it was just static.
Unfortunately there is no true FM of wavetable.

The best bet is to use either the merger (it simulates FM) the beauty here is that it can be used on anything even the sampler. I almost always prefer the second of the 2 modes. Try playing with the depth multiplier too. Or, modulate the phase of the wavetables transform shape. With this option you can go into the LFO and increase the level parameter to make the effect stronger.

It's easy to code FM from wavetable A to B in Serum as there are only 2 OSCs. But it's a lot different in a modular environment.

Why does the sound need to be the same as Serum?

[Whywhy]

You can always modulate the phase of wt osc with another wt osc with a custom modulator : like serum.

[] Peter:H []

You can always modulate the phase of wt osc with another wt osc with a custom modulator : like serum.

Tried it, but is not possible. The Custom Mods are not available in the mod menu of the phase of WT8

[Whywhy]

Hi Peter,
Wt osc: transform: phase.
Mod that transform parameter with custom mod, it works here.

[_TIP_]

Why does the sound need to be the same as Serum?

I would like to sell Serum and every other plugin I own and work only with MSF and MXXX (compatibility issues over the years with plugins made me OCD )

You can always modulate the phase of wt osc with another wt osc with a custom modulator : like serum.

Tried it, but is not possible. The Custom Mods are not available in the mod menu of the phase of WT8

Whywhy was talking about the phase in the Transforms Tab and not the INIT Phase.

You can always modulate the phase of wt osc with another wt osc with a custom modulator : like serum.

I know, the problem is that it sounds nothing like Serum

[Whywhy]

It does phase modulation like in serum, if you need a wider range, insert a gain/volume between the osc and the custom mod.
I try it and it does the trick.

[_TIP_]

It does phase modulation like in serum, if you need a wider range, insert a gain/volume between the osc and the custom mod.
I try it and it does the trick.

This is exactly what I'm doing but unfortunately MSoundFactory sounds very different than the other two synths and for some reason the sound is kind of weak and clicky (if that makes any sense), Serum and Phase Plant sound identical and straight in your face IMO. Please check the updated video from the first post, at 1:47 you can hear the sound comparison of all 3 synths, thanks!

[Whywhy]

I watched your video:
2 things :
1: osc 1 : it should be place : first column, like you did, but place on the third row ( if the custom mod position is the second row)
2: custom mod : value -1 / +1

[Whywhy]

You are right, the phase modulation works, for a certain amount, it's pure phase mod but 8f we want a bigger amount, the value is "clipped".