BR: Submix routing logic is wrong => feedback loop

[astey]

W11 has a submix issue, which leads to phase cancellation and bitcrushing.
Tracktion routes audio between tracks through its parent submix channel. Which is wrong.

Reproduction
1) Create two tracks
2) Route track 1 to track 2
3) use "create submix containing" both tracks

2020-05-11 235803.png

=> nasty feedback loop

Expected:
Track 1 feeds track 2. Track 2 feeds submix.


Tracktion's signal path is top down at the moment, which leads to audio errors. It should be bottom up.

[pough]

I can confirm there's something odd going on. It seems as though track 1 is being routed to both track 2 and the submix at the same time. In fact, if I route it to a track outside the submix it does the same thing - plays through the external track and the submix together and sounds terrible. If I mute track 2, track 1 sound normal even though it should be muted. If I turn the volume on track 2 all the way down, track 1 still sounds terrible for some reason.

[astey]

I can confirm there's something odd going on. It seems as though track 1 is being routed to both track 2 and the submix at the same time. In fact, if I route it to a track outside the submix it does the same thing - plays through the external track and the submix together and sounds terrible. If I mute track 2, track 1 sound normal even though it should be muted. If I turn the volume on track 2 all the way down, track 1 still sounds terrible for some reason.

Thank you for confirming this ! I hope they will fix it quickly

[dRowAudio]

I'm not sure if it's actually valid to route tracks to other tracks contained in a submix...
If you select a track inside a submix and view its Track Destination property you'll see it's disabled. So it's probably a bug that its doing something at all.

If a track is inside a submix it should really only route to the submix plugin bus. For example, it would make no sense to route it to a track outside the submix which is currently possible by clicking the output button. This I think is the bug.

[astey]

I'm not sure if it's actually valid to route tracks to other tracks contained in a submix...
If you select a track inside a submix and view its Track Destination property you'll see it's disabled. So it's probably a bug that its doing something at all.

If a track is inside a submix it should really only route to the submix plugin bus. For example, it would make no sense to route it to a track outside the submix which is currently possible by clicking the output button. This I think is the bug.

I think this approach is very limiting and not suited for professional users.
Especially when you need to edit groups of tracks at the end of a project. This would ruin all routings beforehand.
It becomes impossible to use a submixes once it contains a custom routing at any point. This might be trivial at first but at the end of a project it becomes a mess.



Examples on top of my head: Why its important to allow custom routings inside of submixes:

• Submixes doesn't allow midi clips. Custom routed tracks allow this though.
  
  Workflow example:
  I. Track 1 plays a lead instrument
  II. Track 2 plays a chord instrument.
  III. Both need to be sidechained rhythmically by a midi lfo tool (volumeshaper, lfo tool, mrhythmizer).
  
  ->Its impossible to use a submix which doesn't allow midi clips to trigger a lfo tool, therefore custom track routings are necessary for applying step III.
  
  =>With its current state of W11, there can't be any submixes in its parent structure anymore!

You used custom routings in your project, but need to implement the following edits -
W11 prohibits this in its current state:

• You got a big project such as film scoring, orchestral music, game effects or complex EDM. You want to color or compress a whole range of tracks at once: such as drums, strings, brass. These tracks are interacting with each other already. So the only way to process all tracks at once would be a submix.

• You use submixes as a way of merging tracks, but aren't allowed anymore

• You are a mixing engineer and the client says: "I would like to have a filter rise on this part of the instrumental without the vocal (famous Drake effect). The easiest way would be to use a submix, including all tracks. Now you could process them simultaneously.

• Submixes could be used to bounce stems before the master track, because one uses room correction software vsts on the master bus.

Bitwig uses submixes in a similar style, but in a very flexible way. They call it "group track". You can group tracks independently from their output settings. Creating a "group track" just sets track outputs to the group track. "group track" looks like a folder.
So users can decide whether they want to change output settings later on. I think they use submixes perfectly.

How could this principle applied to submixes in Waveform?
1)"Create a submix containing..." creates a "regular track".
2) all selected tracks with audio output set to default, will be routed to the newly created track. custom routings stay unaffected.
3) visually all tracks can be grouped like a folder track [/list]

Result:
-> full flexibility for users,
-> probably easy to maintain at the backend, because there is no such thing as special submixes anymore.


Thanks
Cheers

[fde101]

You can always send the output of multiple tracks to the input of another normal track to use that track as a submix.
You can also use send plugins on the tracks to feed a return that is located on another track.
There are also ways to accomplish this using FX racks.

So no, a submix track is NOT the only way to go about doing those things.

Use a folder track instead of a submix track if you want custom routing.

The submix track is a convenient shortcut for common cases but will not cover every possible routing scenario. Use one of the other options if you need to deal with those.

[dRowAudio]

A submix track by definition has its contained tracks routed to its plugins. I don't understand how you could have a track within a submix routed to a track outside the submix (i.e. by setting its Track Destination property) and then expect that to somehow get back in to the submix? You've just explicitly routed it outside the submix so there's nothing going in to the submix from that track anymore...

I can probably allow routing of tracks to other tracks inside (i.e. at the same nesting level) of a submix but I'm not sure if that's actually what's being asked here?

It sounds like for most of the examples you listed you'd just set the Track Destination of the tracks you want to route to somewhere else to a new track and use that as the "submix"?

[astey]

Sorry, I wasn't typing fast enough.

It sounds like for most of the examples you listed you'd just set the Track Destination of the tracks you want to route to somewhere else to a new track and use that as the "submix"?

This is correct.
However I think this isn't the way new users and beginners think.
Other DAWs handle submix like this: a submix takes signals that were meant for it's hierarchy above and merges them. Submixes don't care about track internal signal routings.
Apparently Waveform handles submixes differently: Custom routings within (no routing out) a submix lead to distortion and doubled signals

This is how I would imagine submixes to work:

Bitwig uses submixes in a similar style, but in a very flexible way. They call it "group track" / "folder track". You can group tracks independently from their output settings. Creating a "group track" just sets track outputs to the group track once. A "group track" looks like a folder. "Group tracks" can be nested.
So users can decide whether they want to change output settings later on. I believe they use submixes aka "group tracks" perfectly.

How could this principle be applied to submixes in Waveform?

• 1) "Create a submix containing..." creates a "regular track".

• 2) all selected tracks with audio output set to default, will be routed to the newly created track once. custom routings stay unaffected.

• 3) If submixes are inserted in existing submixes, track outputs to the original submix will be replaced by the new submix once. The new submix sets its output to the old submix

• 4) visually all tracks can be grouped accordingly, like a folder track

Result:
-> full flexibility for users,
-> output can be set freely. to every track in the project. outside the submix.
-> no conflicts and feedbackloops, if you insert another "submix / group track" at the end of a project
-> probably easy to maintain at the backend, because there is no such thing as special audio & midi submix anymore.

One could say "creating a submix" becomes an automated function of routing regular tracks accordingly with the addition of grouping them visually.



This is an example how to cross route audio & midi signals. There is no feedback loop. You could route signals very flexible and independently.

Track routing
Track 1 =>Track 2
Track 2 =>Master Output
Track 3 =>Track 2

Track 4 => Track 6
Track 5 => Master Output
Track 6 => Track 5

In both cases Track 2, Track 5, Track 6 will function as "submix" for audio & midi signals.


Cheers

[astey]

You can always send the output of multiple tracks to the input of another normal track to use that track as a submix.
You can also use send plugins on the tracks to feed a return that is located on another track.
There are also ways to accomplish this using FX racks.

So no, a submix track is NOT the only way to go about doing those things.

Use a folder track instead of a submix track if you want custom routing.

The submix track is a convenient shortcut for common cases but will not cover every possible routing scenario. Use one of the other options if you need to deal with those.

This is correct and I'm with you, with the exception that its not straight forward.
I'm new to Waveform and I struggled for 3 days to figure this out. Maybe this is obvious for long term users, but for people like myself - who uses other DAWs for years - might stumble or become frustrated, while they try to learn Waveform or stop trying to learn Waveform.

In my eyes, I'm suggesting a similar way but with greater comfort and more functionality. And I hope David might think about it.

[imstre]

Hi,
I am very interested in the topic!
Can the master channel be only 4 VST? With rack fx more?
How to Do Track Routing ? = I need: pre master channel and monitoring channel
whether such routing can be done?

Thanks
p.s.vst Gclip 1.2 and dpMeter4 crashed
they are much needed for the job
Win10, intel corei5, 12 ram

[fde101]

If a track is inside a submix it should really only route to the submix plugin bus. For example, it would make no sense to route it to a track outside the submix which is currently possible by clicking the output button. This I think is the bug.

I agree because of the way that submix tracks are set up to work within Waveform; however, the current behavior actually does have at least one use case to its credit: it allows a track's output to be routed to two different submixes at the same time - the folder submix containing it, and another one set up as a normal track (or as a track within another submix).

I don't think Waveform currently offers a "nice" way to do that otherwise (outside of using a rack to do the routing, or send/return plugins). Most mixing consoles, for example, can route a track to multiple submixes, so it is a valid thing to want to do...

[pough]

I'm not sure if it's actually valid to route tracks to other tracks contained in a submix...
If you select a track inside a submix and view its Track Destination property you'll see it's disabled. So it's probably a bug that its doing something at all.

That's in the control panel. The little icon at the far right of the track still allows you to choose a destination.

If a track is inside a submix it should really only route to the submix plugin bus. For example, it would make no sense to route it to a track outside the submix which is currently possible by clicking the output button. This I think is the bug.

I sometimes separate MIDI to different tracks when programming drums and percussion. A recent example is a tambourine MIDI clip that I want to be on its own track and route that MIDI to Addictive Drums on another track. I also often put drums and other percussion into a submix.

[fde101]

I'm not sure if it's actually valid to route tracks to other tracks contained in a submix...
If you select a track inside a submix and view its Track Destination property you'll see it's disabled. So it's probably a bug that its doing something at all.

That's in the control panel. The little icon at the far right of the track still allows you to choose a destination.

This matches what I am seeing. The text that appears in the control panel states explicitly that tracks which are part of a submix do not have a direct destination, so that does demonstrate that the fact that the output can be selected in the track header is in fact a bug.

If a track is inside a submix it should really only route to the submix plugin bus. For example, it would make no sense to route it to a track outside the submix which is currently possible by clicking the output button. This I think is the bug.

I sometimes separate MIDI to different tracks when programming drums and percussion. A recent example is a tambourine MIDI clip that I want to be on its own track and route that MIDI to Addictive Drums on another track. I also often put drums and other percussion into a submix.

Keep those MIDI tracks out of the submix track and only include the one with the actual instrument. You can still route those MIDI tracks into the track within the submix.

If you are simply trying to group the tracks with only the MIDI you can use a folder track instead of a submix (just don't try to add any plugins to the folder or it gets converted to a submix). Tracks within a folder track are kept together and it can be collapsed, but they can still be routed arbitrarily.

[UnionS8]

I second that. The actual routing is counter intuitive for people comming from another DAWs. As mentioned several times here, it's not common not to have all tracks within a Submix track go through it. I consider Submix track as a sort of Bus with the abbility to collapse all submerged tracks. Yes, there's the possibility to make a real bus and a folder tracks, but then I have two additional track occupying the monitor. Also the folder track doesn't use the volume meter. So I have one folder track without volume indication, which can hide nested tracks, and then the bus showing the loudness, but it's somewhere else and isn't collapsible.
And I don't see any reason for Waveform to do it this way. I LOVE W11 for it's workflow streamlined to composing (I have never been faster in sketching ideas than now with W11), but this weird routing is simply killing me. (And I don't mention the stem rendering, which is confusing maybe even more )

[dRowAudio]

I'm going to have to think on this a bit more. We need to be very careful about breaking existing functionality. There are many people that would be very angry if we changed the routing algorithms internally and suddenly all their tracks are being sent to different places.