Ableton Live ($700) doomed? Now Logic ($200) got huge update.

[antic604]

Will Logic 10.5 take user from Cubase ($550) and Studio One ($400).

The topic is about Logic's clip launcher making users move from Live to it (which is a valid question). Why are you now mixing Cubase and S1 into it? They don't have clip launchers, although I can imagine someone using Bitwig and S1 (if they're on OSX) moving to Logic now, because it covers both bases

[antic604]

I don't see Logic being a replacement for Max for Live. Once it has something like Chaos Culture Modulat, which is easily the most powerful thing I've ever used in a DAW, then I could maybe see people jumping over (or at least those of us who use M4L -- Logic might be more appealing for people who don't use it).

99%+ of Live users don't use it and doesn't even have a need for it.

Where did you get that number from?

I was talking about Modulat

[antic604]

I don't see Logic being a replacement for Max for Live. Once it has something like Chaos Culture Modulat, which is easily the most powerful thing I've ever used in a DAW, then I could maybe see people jumping over (or at least those of us who use M4L -- Logic might be more appealing for people who don't use it).

For you, maybe. 99%+ of Live users don't use it and doesn't even have a need for it.

That's not true at all. Ableton's own device packs, which lots of people use, are mostly programmed in M4L. Also, Isotonik, K-Devices, and many other M4L device creators do very well. You are probably right that 99% of Live users don't program in M4L, but the majority of Live users absolutely do use M4L. Until that changes, Live users won't be moving to Logic.

I'm talkig about Modulat

[SLiC]

Will Logic 10.5 take user from Cubase ($550) and Studio One ($400).

The topic is about Logic's clip launcher making users move from Live to it (which is a valid question). Why are you now mixing Cubase and S1 into it? They don't have clip launchers, although I can imagine someone using Bitwig and S1 (if they're on OSX) moving to Logic now, because it covers both bases

Cubase and Studio One survive against Logic despite its low cost... I don't think these users will be jumping across the clip launcher (maybe for other features...) so why would Ableton be doomed because Logic added a fairly limited clip launcher. A clip launcher doesn't make something Ableton Live, Live has a different workflow and a different ethos.

As for replacing Bitwig and Studio One- I don't know enough about Logic to comment but this seems very unlikely (particularly with respect to Bigwig which really marches to the beat of its own drum...) and again, if a garage band style clip launcher was all you needed, the you probably didn't need Bitwig in the first place.

Incidentally, didn't see everything switching over to DP10 who did this months ago and it is a lot more like Live in looks and functionality...

[Passing Bye]

Maybe if Logic does 'doom' Live (and Cubase et al) other developers will simply stop supporting the Mac OS. Maybe Ableton will drop MAC!

That doesn't make any sense, if Logic "killed" competition, then pretty much most business would go in just developing AU's for macOS, that would make developers life so much easier, instead of supporting at that point dying platform.

I was referring to DAW developers, not plug ins. Is it worth other 'DAW developers' supporting/going after MAC OS against such a high quality DAW at such a low cost? There can't be much market left.

Of course it is worth, there's enough people using macOS for audio, they would pretty much shoot themselves in the foot with such move, being one platform only makes no business sense, no matter what.

[SLiC]

Maybe if Logic does 'doom' Live (and Cubase et al) other developers will simply stop supporting the Mac OS. Maybe Ableton will drop MAC!

That doesn't make any sense, if Logic "killed" competition, then pretty much most business would go in just developing AU's for macOS, that would make developers life so much easier, instead of supporting at that point dying platform.

I was referring to DAW developers, not plug ins. Is it worth other 'DAW developers' supporting/going after MAC OS against such a high quality DAW at such a low cost? There can't be much market left.

Of course it is worth, there's enough people using macOS for audio, they would pretty much shoot themselves in the foot with such move, being one platform only makes no business sense, no matter what.

Logic is one platform only

[Passing Bye]

Maybe if Logic does 'doom' Live (and Cubase et al) other developers will simply stop supporting the Mac OS. Maybe Ableton will drop MAC!

That doesn't make any sense, if Logic "killed" competition, then pretty much most business would go in just developing AU's for macOS, that would make developers life so much easier, instead of supporting at that point dying platform.

I was referring to DAW developers, not plug ins. Is it worth other 'DAW developers' supporting/going after MAC OS against such a high quality DAW at such a low cost? There can't be much market left.

Of course it is worth, there's enough people using macOS for audio, they would pretty much shoot themselves in the foot with such move, being one platform only makes no business sense, no matter what.

Logic is one platform only

What Apple sells, just Logic?

[SLiC]

Maybe if Logic does 'doom' Live (and Cubase et al) other developers will simply stop supporting the Mac OS. Maybe Ableton will drop MAC!

That doesn't make any sense, if Logic "killed" competition, then pretty much most business would go in just developing AU's for macOS, that would make developers life so much easier, instead of supporting at that point dying platform.

I was referring to DAW developers, not plug ins. Is it worth other 'DAW developers' supporting/going after MAC OS against such a high quality DAW at such a low cost? There can't be much market left.

Of course it is worth, there's enough people using macOS for audio, they would pretty much shoot themselves in the foot with such move, being one platform only makes no business sense, no matter what.

Logic is one platform only

What Apple sells, just Logic?

Apple is a company, not a platform. All the other developers sell to Windows and MacOS (some even Linux). Apple only sell Logic on one platform. Logic is one platform only.

[Passing Bye]

That doesn't make any sense, if Logic "killed" competition, then pretty much most business would go in just developing AU's for macOS, that would make developers life so much easier, instead of supporting at that point dying platform.

I was referring to DAW developers, not plug ins. Is it worth other 'DAW developers' supporting/going after MAC OS against such a high quality DAW at such a low cost? There can't be much market left.

Of course it is worth, there's enough people using macOS for audio, they would pretty much shoot themselves in the foot with such move, being one platform only makes no business sense, no matter what.

Logic is one platform only

What Apple sells, just Logic?

Apple is a company, not a platform. All the other developers sell to Windows and MacOS (some even Linux). Apple only sell Logic on one platform. Logic is one platform only.

Apple is owner of a platform, hardware and software, I don't know what are you trying to prove anymore, that it's bad move for them to just sell software for their own computers which use their own OS?

I don't agree that is wisest business move to remove yourself from Apple audio market share, you started with that taught and we are getting nowhere, also if Apple sold Logic to Windows, it would shoot themselves in the foot, Logic is premium product for owners of their machines, you know that, my cats know that, neighbours dog knows that, but here we are dragging ourselves into this ridiculous conversation.

[SLiC]

Is it a bad move for Ableton to just sell to the PC Market in the future if they have almost no share of the MacOs market due to Apple keeping their DAW cost low and implementing Lives features? At some point it may not be cost effective to support multiple platforms if they sell hardly any licences to MAC users due to a subsidised Logic offering what they used to offer as a USP. It’s certainly not impossible that Logic could kill of Live that way on the Mac OS.

I thought that was the point/question pertaining to this thread (although I agree it’s a pretty pointless thread!).

[apoclypse]

Is it a bad move for Ableton to just sell to the PC Market in the future if they have almost no share of the MacOs market due to Apple keeping their DAW cost low and implementing Lives features? At some point it may not be cost effective to support multiple platforms if they sell hardly any licences to MAC users due to a subsidised Logic offering what they used to offer as a USP. It’s certainly not impossible that Logic could kill of Live that way on the Mac OS.

I thought that was the point/question pertaining to this thread (although I agree it’s a pretty pointless thread!).

Logic didn't kill off Cubase on Mac. They didn't kill off S1 on Mac. They didn't kill off Protools on Mac.

They are not going to kill off Ableton either. Yes Apple's low price has been disruptive for the industry (but mostly good for consumers), but Ableton is already in a really competitive landscape. The only thing Ableton will probably do is lower prices or focus their energy on some other DAW features that will differentiate them if they want to keep their prices high. I suspect the latter.

Right now Ableton has a lot of momentum. Hardware support is second to none with manufacturers treating Ableton as a first class citizen vs other DAWs when it comes to controller support. It's going to take more than Apple adding clip launching to change that.

[excuse me please]

I'd say you will get an enormous amount of stuff for €419.

[Passing Bye]

Is it a bad move for Ableton to just sell to the PC Market in the future if they have almost no share of the MacOs market due to Apple keeping their DAW cost low and implementing Lives features? At some point it may not be cost effective to support multiple platforms if they sell hardly any licences to MAC users due to a subsidised Logic offering what they used to offer as a USP. It’s certainly not impossible that Logic could kill of Live that way on the Mac OS.

I thought that was the point/question pertaining to this thread (although I agree it’s a pretty pointless thread!).

Some audio people buy Apple hardware not because of Logic, but because they are into it for whatever reason, plenty of them would be pissed if Ableton decided to cut them off, it seems like it's almost equal share of Windows&macOS users over there, few plugin companies also confirmed that, so they are putting up with Apple crap because of that and even if Logic suddenly got so competitive to make Live redundant, remaining community probably wouldn't get so much in Windows favor to ease Ableton's decision to cut them off.

Macbook is kinda de facto for live performers, sure, it's possible to use Windows on it, but as we all know plenty of folks are also really into macOS, so they pay premium for the whole OS and hardware package, dunno, if things stay the way are now concerning status of Apple hardware in audio circles, it would be a bad move, if for some reason that changes, than sure, maybe AMD laptops start getting some serious recognition and fan base among audio guys, anything can happen, maybe Apple piss of so many people with ARM, anything is possible, so I apologize, you are right than.

[SLiC]

Logic didn't kill off Cubase on Mac. They didn't kill off S1 on Mac. They didn't kill off Protools on Mac.

I agree, they have not in the past...But Logic Seems to be getting much better whilst remaining low cost. So the question remains will this new update have an effect on the market? (I wonder what share of the MacOS market the others have). Personally as a Live user, I just hope Ableton really up their game as there is no doubt Logic has raised the bar for a free point update!

[apoclypse]

Logic didn't kill off Cubase on Mac. They didn't kill off S1 on Mac. They didn't kill off Protools on Mac.

I agree, they have not in the past...But Logic Seems to be getting much better whilst remaining low cost. So the question remains will this new update have an effect on the market? (I wonder what share of the MacOS market the others have). Personally as a Live user, I just hope Ableton really up their game as there is no doubt Logic has raised the bar for a free point update!

That has been the case for Logic for at least a decade at this point. Logic has always been the best bang for buck DAW on the market that does more, has more, but costs less. Nothing has really changed except they've added a clip launcher. Like I said that has forced other DAWs to lower their prices so now the median price for DAWs in general is about $399 versus $800 plus two decades ago.

Look at S1. S1 costs more than Logic but S1 has only been gaining users over the last few years. Just because Logic is a disruptive force that doesn't mean other DAWs can't succeed on the Mac platform.

You also have to think about inertia. Not everyone wants to jump on the next DAW because it's new. They are Live users and that's all they know and care about. You also have a lot of certified Live trainers. They are not going to throw their certification away or stop training new users because Logic all of a sudden got a clip launcher. I am part of an electronic music feedback meetup group and the majority of users are on Live. Most are newbs who just went through training and that's what they were taught.

Like I said Live isn't going anywhere. Ableton smartly put themselves in a position where people are living off of their platform. I'm not just talking about making music. I'm talking about certified trainers, hardware manufacturers (who include Ableton Live Lite, you can't do that with Logic), people selling audio racks, sound packs, M4L devices. People making a living making Youtube videos showing people how to do things. There is way too much inertia behind Ableton. If Bitwig didn't hurt them, neither will Logic.