Considering Waveform as my first DAW

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dynamo wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:58 pm Do 64-bit versions of plugins that offer both give a better performance/demands less CPU power?
You need to match it to the DAW.

If you are running a 64-bit version of Waveform, use 64-bit plugins. If you are running a 32-bit version of Waveform, use 32-bit plugins.

That will give you the best performance.

Going with 64-bit allows more memory to be used and in some cases can allow data to be shuttled around in memory faster, but at the cost of consuming a bit more memory to begin with as basic numbers within the code might take up twice as much space (64 bits instead of 32 means double the memory usage for some types of data, though not for all, so it doesn't exactly mean that memory requirements of the program in general actually double - how much of an increase will depend greatly on the program itself).

In theory, 64-bit code can sometimes mean faster processing, but audio plugins are generally working with 16-bit or 32-bit values anyway (there are not too many 64-bit audio engines around) so they will not benefit much from this. Having access to more memory means being able to load more plugins while working on larger projects, but if your computer is old enough that you would need a GPU upgrade to run Mojave, chances are you will hit a CPU bottleneck before you would run out of memory for your plugins...

In the end, it is probably a bit of a toss-up, as long as you keep them matched to the DAW. Using 64-bit plugins with a 32-bit DAW or vice versa will incur the biggest performance cost as some things would need to be translated in between which adds overhead.

However, chances are you will eventually need to replace your computer, and when going to a newer one will likely be on a version of macOS that does not support 32-bit, so if you are starting at this point, I would suggest favoring 64-bit as much as possible in order to future-proof your investments - so they continue to work when you move to a newer computer.

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Thanks for explaining. Waveform says it's a 64-bit application (strangely not in the Finder's "Show info" for the app but in the app-name itself: Waveform 11 (64-bit)
I suppose that info is shown in the MacOS System profiler/system report. I'm currently running MacOS 10.11 but plan to upgrade to 10.12 or 10.13 soon. I'm leaning towards NOT upgrading to 10.14 though (as you also pointed out) a new GPU is needed for "metal" compatibility, and something I frankly don't see much benefit in, but more of a financial outlay. Will Waveform benefit from a faster GPU? I'm under that impression that this is more for heavy video-editing work.

Future-proofing my setup is a good idea in case I replace the computer at some stage. Right now I think my Mac Pro will do fine (at least I hope so, not yet having much experience with DAWs).
It's a Mac Pro (mid-2010) with a 4-core 2.8 GHz Xeon CPU but I'm about to replace the CPU with a 6-core 3.46 GHz Xeon. I already upgraded the RAM to 24 GB (3x 8GB) which now runs at 1066 MHz but with the new CPU can run faster (1333 MHz as far as I remember) -good thing I was thinking ahead when I ordered that faster RAM a few years back.
I'm also about to replace my almost full 3 TB 7200 RPM HDD with a 10 TB 7200 RPM HDD, and for apps/MacOS I have a bootable 2.5" 128 GB SSD. If found necessary I'm also considering getting a 1TB NVMe PCIe SSD card as a means of temporary storage/work area for performance-critical work, then move the files over to the HDD for permanent storage when done.
Do you think my Mac will be good enough for making music with Waveform, and would it be necessary to get that super-fast PCIe based SSD for this, or will a 7200 RPM HDD do?

I don't know what's most CPU-intensive with DAWs (Waveform in particular) but from what I've gathered it might be soft-synth plugins and reverb. I'll be using a lot of hardware MIDI-synths (at least to begin with, as I already have that) but I will probably be using 2-4 different reverbs at once, along with a couple of different delays, chorus and so on. And a soft-sampler to replace my hardware sampler. I don't know if this is considered a "typical", "heavy" or "light" DAW setup, but there you have it.

I'll go for 64-bit plugins then, as long as they're available, but if a plugin only comes as 32-bit (i.e. an old plugin which has since been abandoned): can I install it along with the other plugins, or do I need to go with the same bits for all plugins?

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Just to clarify, there is no 32 bit version of Waveform 11, there only is a 64 bit version.

The last 32 bit version of Waveform was Waveform 8.
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"

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Waveform 11 is currently not stable on El Capitan.
audio engine crash fest.

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dynamo wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:17 am I'm currently running MacOS 10.11 but plan to upgrade to 10.12 or 10.13 soon. I'm leaning towards NOT upgrading to 10.14 though (as you also pointed out)
I am on 10.13 on mine and have no intention of upgrading this system to 10.14, though I have upgraded the GPU on it and should be able to handle. I plan on replacing it with a newer Mac within the next few years and will most likely be on whatever is the latest at that time.
My MacBook Pro is on 10.14.

It's a Mac Pro (mid-2010) with a 4-core 2.8 GHz Xeon CPU
That is actually what I have as well and it is working just fine.
I already upgraded the RAM to 24 GB (3x 8GB)
Mine is at 20 GB (2 x 8GB, 2 x 2GB)
Note that RAM on this model of Mac Pro works best when installed in pairs - having an odd number of DIMMs or mismatched ones will work but at reduced speed.
Do you think my Mac will be good enough for making music with Waveform, and would it be necessary to get that super-fast PCIe based SSD for this, or will a 7200 RPM HDD do?
More than good enough. No need for the SSD if this is all you are doing.
I don't know if this is considered a "typical", "heavy" or "light" DAW setup, but there you have it.
That is rather light in general, though it does depend to some degree on the specific plugins you are using.
I'll go for 64-bit plugins then, as long as they're available, but if a plugin only comes as 32-bit (i.e. an old plugin which has since been abandoned): can I install it along with the other plugins, or do I need to go with the same bits for all plugins?
You can install it, but it won't work unless you also have a bridge of some sort in place to make it look like a 64-bit plugin to the DAW. I personally have never used one (I just stick with the newer plugins) so I can't give you specific advice on a bridge but I know there are others on the forum who might be able to help if you reach that point.

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dupont wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:34 am Waveform 11 is currently not stable on El Capitan.
audio engine crash fest.
I wasn't aware of that. Will it work better in 10.12 Sierra or 10.13 High Sierra?
Which of the two would you recommend for the best performance/stability?

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fde101 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:53 am I am on 10.13 on mine and have no intention of upgrading this system to 10.14, though I have upgraded the GPU on it and should be able to handle. I plan on replacing it with a newer Mac within the next few years and will most likely be on whatever is the latest at that time.
My MacBook Pro is on 10.14.
I also have a MacBook Pro (mid-2012) 13" with a 2.5 GHz i5 processor in addition to the Mac Pro.
As far as I know I can upgrade it to 10.14 or even 10.15 (it's currently at 10.9.5) but is it powerful enough to run Waveform? It would be great for making music on the go!

May I ask why you've decided to stay with 10.13 on your Mac Pro when you have a Metal capable card?
It's a Mac Pro (mid-2010) with a 4-core 2.8 GHz Xeon CPU
That is actually what I have as well and it is working just fine.
Cool! :)

I already upgraded the RAM to 24 GB (3x 8GB)
Mine is at 20 GB (2 x 8GB, 2 x 2GB)
Note that RAM on this model of Mac Pro works best when installed in pairs - having an odd number of DIMMs or mismatched ones will work but at reduced speed.
I've heard the opposite: that 3 memory modules gives a slightly higher speed than populating all 4 slots. For instance in this forum discussion.
Do you feel it's enough for Waveform? I suppose it depends on how you use it... I'm guessing soft-synths and soft-samplers demand a lot of RAM.


Do you think my Mac will be good enough for making music with Waveform, and would it be necessary to get that super-fast PCIe based SSD for this, or will a 7200 RPM HDD do?
More than good enough. No need for the SSD if this is all you are doing.
That's great news!
The 13" MacBook Pro is upgraded by replacing its HDD with a 1 TB 2.5" SSD and 16 GB of RAM. Very nice for better response and less battery drain.

I don't know if this is considered a "typical", "heavy" or "light" DAW setup, but there you have it.
That is rather light in general, though it does depend to some degree on the specific plugins you are using.
I've been lookin at 3rd party reverb plugins lately and see that many descriptions tell about "low CPU usage". Provided that information is true it's probably a good idea to go for those instead of sloppy written memory and CPU hungry plugins :wink:

I'll go for 64-bit plugins then, as long as they're available, but if a plugin only comes as 32-bit (i.e. an old plugin which has since been abandoned): can I install it along with the other plugins, or do I need to go with the same bits for all plugins?
You can install it, but it won't work unless you also have a bridge of some sort in place to make it look like a 64-bit plugin to the DAW. I personally have never used one (I just stick with the newer plugins) so I can't give you specific advice on a bridge but I know there are others on the forum who might be able to help if you reach that point.
That explains why I never got an old plugin to work (it never showed up in any DAW)!
I'll try to go for 64-bit plugins, and I see most of them are that anyway.
... and look into a bridge solution if there are 32-bit plugins I just can't live without.

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dynamo wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:25 pm
dupont wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:34 am Waveform 11 is currently not stable on El Capitan.
audio engine crash fest.
I wasn't aware of that. Will it work better in 10.12 Sierra or 10.13 High Sierra?
Which of the two would you recommend for the best performance/stability?
I can't help, not tried neither with 10.12 nor 10.03.
best is to DL W11 free trial and see by yourself. if it is prone to crash, it will quicly.

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dynamo wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:25 pm
dupont wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:34 am Waveform 11 is currently not stable on El Capitan.
audio engine crash fest.
I wasn't aware of that. Will it work better in 10.12 Sierra or 10.13 High Sierra?
Which of the two would you recommend for the best performance/stability?
Please don't treat a single opinion from one person as any kind of statistical evidence about Waveform's stability.

We obviously have proper stats and analytics data, so we KNOW that it's stable for the overwhelming majority of users. However, all DAWs have combinations of OS/plugin/version/use-case that fail, and it's an occupational hazard that when someone with a loud forum presence is unlucky enough to be in the minority who hit a problem, then the world tends to get a distorted picture of how prevalent that is.

@dupont - there's literally nothing that has a higher priority than fixing crashes that users report to us. You're not doing anyone a service by making all these posts to warn them about it being unstable, because their experience is highly unlikely to be anything like your own. But you could do yourself and others a service by actually getting in touch with our devs and giving us the info needed to track down and fix whatever edge-case you're running into.

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jules wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:41 pm Please don't treat a single opinion from one person as any kind of statistical evidence about Waveform's stability.
Good point!
That said, is there any MacOS version which is better suited for Waveform 11, or is it irrelevant for its performance?

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jules wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:41 pm
dynamo wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:25 pm
dupont wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:34 am Waveform 11 is currently not stable on El Capitan.
audio engine crash fest.
I wasn't aware of that. Will it work better in 10.12 Sierra or 10.13 High Sierra?
Which of the two would you recommend for the best performance/stability?
Please don't treat a single opinion from one person as any kind of statistical evidence about Waveform's stability.

We obviously have proper stats and analytics data, so we KNOW that it's stable for the overwhelming majority of users. However, all DAWs have combinations of OS/plugin/version/use-case that fail, and it's an occupational hazard that when someone with a loud forum presence is unlucky enough to be in the minority who hit a problem, then the world tends to get a distorted picture of how prevalent that is.

@dupont - there's literally nothing that has a higher priority than fixing crashes that users report to us. You're not doing anyone a service by making all these posts to warn them about it being unstable, because their experience is highly unlikely to be anything like your own. But you could do yourself and others a service by actually getting in touch with our devs and giving us the info needed to track down and fix whatever edge-case you're running into.
I wrote several posts to explain how the bugs happen so I can't be blamed not to help the community. I even ask to be a beta tester.
Note that I used to be a licence Tracktion user from T1 to T7 (even when it was owned by Mackie) until I was fed up with crashes, this has been a big frustration because I really wanted to support TSC.
Since W8 I tried demos but it has not improved (on my side I agree with you) and I came from time to time in this forum to post about the frustrating bugs in hope thinks improved and I purchase a licence.
It's not a secret there is stability issue : I'm not the only to face, you can read several users report.
that and it will be unfair not to tell to the community. This is the purpose of a forum !
My system is rock solid and rarely crashes with other Daws.

But as I said @dynamo, he should try and see how it goes.

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jules wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:41 pm
dynamo wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:25 pm
dupont wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:34 am Waveform 11 is currently not stable on El Capitan.
audio engine crash fest.
I wasn't aware of that. Will it work better in 10.12 Sierra or 10.13 High Sierra?
Which of the two would you recommend for the best performance/stability?
Please don't treat a single opinion from one person as any kind of statistical evidence about Waveform's stability.

We obviously have proper stats and analytics data, so we KNOW that it's stable for the overwhelming majority of users. However, all DAWs have combinations of OS/plugin/version/use-case that fail, and it's an occupational hazard that when someone with a loud forum presence is unlucky enough to be in the minority who hit a problem, then the world tends to get a distorted picture of how prevalent that is.

@dupont - there's literally nothing that has a higher priority than fixing crashes that users report to us. You're not doing anyone a service by making all these posts to warn them about it being unstable, because their experience is highly unlikely to be anything like your own. But you could do yourself and others a service by actually getting in touch with our devs and giving us the info needed to track down and fix whatever edge-case you're running into.
I wrote several posts to explain how the bugs happen so I can't be blamed not to help the community. I even ask to be a beta tester.
Note that I used to be a licence Tracktion user from T1 to T7 (even when it was owned by Mackie) until I was fed up with crashes, this has been a big frustration because I really wanted to support TSC.
Since W8 I tried demos but it has not improved (on my side I agree with you) and I came from time to time in this forum to post about the frustrating bugs in hope thinks improved and I purchase a licence.
It's not a secret there is stability issue : I'm not the only to face, you can read several users report.
it will be unfair not to tell to the community. This is the purpose of a forum !
My system is rock solid and rarely crashes with other Daws.

But as I said @dynamo, he should try and see how it goes.

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dupont wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:57 pm [I wrote several posts to explain how the bugs happen so I can't be blamed not to help the community. I even ask to be a beta tester.
Note that I used to be a licence Tracktion user from T1 to T7 (even when it was owned by Mackie) until I was fed up with crashes, this has been a big frustration because I really wanted to support TSC.
Since W8 I tried demos but it has not improved (on my side I agree with you) and I came from time to time in this forum to post about the frustrating bugs in hope thinks improved and I purchase a licence.
It's not a secret there is stability issue : I'm not the only to face, you can read several users report.
that and it will be unfair not to tell to the community. This is the purpose of a forum !
My system is rock solid and rarely crashes with other Daws.

But as I said @dynamo, he should try and see how it goes.
Best way to get things sorted is to go through the actual support. You will almost certainly need to be able to report a step-by-step process to repeat the problem. It still might not be a problem on anyone else's system, including whichever dev at TSC tried to help.

I have one synth that I reported to the plugin developer. They gave me a beta that fixed the problem... for about 4 hours. I contacted TSC and they suggested a solution that worked... for about 4 days. I swear it's possessed by the devil and have given up on it. By the way, it also crashed FL Studio... a couple of times at first and then mysteriously never again. It also crashed a few of the small testing hosts. Sometimes. It might only be a problem on my particular system and it looks like it might be related to antivirus or malware software - so not even to do with either the plugin developer or Waveform. Who knows? It's impossible for them to track down problems they can't recreate.

Point is, this stuff is tricky and all the folks without problems are silent. So "there is a stability issue" is also true of your solid, dependable DAWS (just not for you) and going through the appropriate channels for bug fixes will give you a much better chance to become one of the silent majority.
Surely there must be consensus by now...

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dynamo wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:03 pm May I ask why you've decided to stay with 10.13 on your Mac Pro when you have a Metal capable card?
Legacy software, not necessarily related to 32-bit... plus not worth the hassle given how much I've tossed things all over the place while I'm running out of disk space myself. The main reason I'm not addressing this directly on the existing system is knowing that I need to upgrade anyway because I want to run software that is not working well on this old of a system (Waveform is not among those that is giving me trouble though... unrelated stuff).
Do you feel it's enough for Waveform? I suppose it depends on how you use it... I'm guessing soft-synths and soft-samplers demand a lot of RAM.
Depends on how many samples you are using. If you are using a lot of instruments backed by many large samples they may start to chew up memory rather quickly.

Synths which are not based on samples, not so much as they don't need to juggle samples, and much of the memory they use can be shared between multiple instances of the synth.

I've been lookin at 3rd party reverb plugins lately and see that many descriptions tell about "low CPU usage". Provided that information is true it's probably a good idea to go for those instead of sloppy written memory and CPU hungry plugins :wink:
It depends on the nature of the reverb itself. Some types of reverbs actually attempt to model real acoustic spaces, which involves a lot of math. Others are more algorithmic in nature - still math, but not quite as much. The reverbs that model acoustic spaces will chew up more CPU time but can also give a very different (often much more natural) sound compared to the ones that are lighter-weight.

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pough wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:26 pm
Best way to get things sorted is to go through the actual support. You will almost certainly need to be able to report a step-by-step process to repeat the problem. It still might not be a problem on anyone else's system, including whichever dev at TSC tried to help.

I have one synth that I reported to the plugin developer. They gave me a beta that fixed the problem... for about 4 hours. I contacted TSC and they suggested a solution that worked... for about 4 days. I swear it's possessed by the devil and have given up on it. By the way, it also crashed FL Studio... a couple of times at first and then mysteriously never again. It also crashed a few of the small testing hosts. Sometimes. It might only be a problem on my particular system and it looks like it might be related to antivirus or malware software - so not even to do with either the plugin developer or Waveform. Who knows? It's impossible for them to track down problems they can't recreate.

Point is, this stuff is tricky and all the folks without problems are silent. So "there is a stability issue" is also true of your solid, dependable DAWS (just not for you) and going through the appropriate channels for bug fixes will give you a much better chance to become one of the silent majority.
most of the time, bugs are not reproducible and happens at random so it's impossible to send detailed instructions.
there is also a dilemma, once the trial period is over, I will not be able to test anymore and why should I purchase a DAW which has not been stable on my system for years ?

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