WHAT TO DO WHEN TRACKTION HANGS SO OFTEN

[Rock President]

My configuration:
PC 2,5 GHZ with ideal setup for all applications (indeed never had problems with other software)
RME HDSP 9652 card
BFD Drums VST Instrument
Tracktion 1.16.. (dated June 2004)

I bought Tracktion after reading posts on this forum. IT IS REALLY very simple and fast learning tracking and editing tool. I like it from that point of the view. I would pay 500 $ for such simple program, if it would be more refined and stable.
I use it ONLY for editing drums track via BFD (that is my absolute favorite source for drum tracks) and I can do it in Tracktion way faster than in any other sequencer.
But what is going on, very often when playing MIDI tracks (especially when I come to finished and complex drums arrangement) Tracktion hangs without obvious reason. It just stops responding with some horrible loud sound. I found that sometimes it repeats on same place in song, but not always. It could be interaction bug with BFD, but BFD proved to be stable in all other hosts (actually I couln't provoke it to stop by itself).
During the day (4-6 hours) it can happened 10 or more times,it means it is ANNOYING and I start to think to return to less comfortable sequencers.
Second, I have problem to route 16 channels out of one MIDI track via BFD (as VSTi). Maybe I cannot find how to do it, but simply no way. (no good manual, also).
So, at the end of the day all benefits are wiped out.
I must say that my main software is Magix Sequoia (also Samplitude), that provides all tools, real stability and sound that is way better that all other competition on the market (of course I do not wish to compare 3000 $ software with 80 $ Tracktion).
It is just to add that if I need GOOD SOUND in mixing and editing, I need to do it good software and in direct comparison, sound of Tracktion is very artificial, digital and unpleasant (I never mix anything there).
I would be happy just to do ideal editing on it with all VSTs I need and later just to transfer tracks to Sequoia.

Does anybody have an experience with BFD+Tracktion and what to do to make this pair work stable?

Thanks
RP

[Mr. Tingle]

Tracktion is very artificial, digital and unpleasant (I never mix anything there)

Are you sure this is not just in your mind? Adding numbers togerther can't be done any other way, right?

Second, I have problem to route 16 channels out of one MIDI track via BFD (as VSTi). Maybe I cannot find how to do it, but simply no way. (no good manual, also).

Put BFD in a rack (right click on the filter). There are tutorials at www.adbe.org

[chico.co.uk]

Can't really suggest much as I don't have BFD, but you should really put up a webpage with the ideal setup of a pc for all applications. Or you could sell the info on ebay. You'd make a fortune.

[Rock President]

Well man, setup enough good to work without glitches in 99 % of applications related to reacking and editing. I didnot (even one time in a year) face crashes with Giga, Powercore VST, BFD as standalone, Samplitude&Sequoia, Reason, Sound Forge aand VST/VSTi plug Ins in other sequencers.
Tracktion in this respect is big disappointment (justifed partially by low price).
In relation to racks, thanx for advice.
Soundwise, numbers can be combined in various ways called algorithms. It is simply not true that digital mixing (what is essential part of the story) sound always similar or same.
I looked for long time and found out that some digital mixing engines sound very pristine and better than rest of the crowd (in lower price category). Among them, Samplitude/Sequoia and Akai DPS 24. Both far nicer than nearest contender as Logic or Pro Tools. This is true as I have both in my studio and do not judge things in biased way.

Regards RP

[NAS]

You need to watch what you say around here i guess ,It is true that differing host can sound different but this is more due to something being added to the sound by a particular host ,With all things equal a straight audio file in one host should sound exactly the same in any other but they dont ,The ones that sound different are actually adding something to the sound so be careful of comparing hosts without actually knowing what internal algoryhtms are being used ,The fact of the matter is that T sounds digital to you but to me it sounds pristine weird huh ,I agree about the flaws in T though ,I bought T and would have got onto this wave of "This is the greatest sequencer ever built" but it just isn't and that is a fact another fact is that T is very very good value for money but i couldn't use it if i didn't use EXT alongside it for editing MIDI stuff ,Its a shame really but T has already died for many a user because it doesn't contain the basics everybody needs (Even though nowadays for me its only really missing a good MIDI editing setup) ,I hope T2 is better but i dont think it will be ,The whole game has changed with other manufacturers latest releases ,So T's only selling point soon may be the $80 price tag if it stays that low and to be honest its totally blown away by EXT at the moment ,I may be wrong but if T2 isnt radically improved with the same awesome workflow i doubt a lot of people will upgrade ,Why bother most of us have already bought something to do what we needed T to do(EXT) and it was cheaper

[Rock President]

Yea, reasonable point.
The subject of sonic quality is always highly speculative, but for any kind of comparison we should suppose simply logic, turn all off what can add something to signal path and compare purely multiple tracks mixdown outcome. That might differ, means in my case differs significantly between engines. But I accept that difference to other ears can be less obvious or even not favorable.
My initial enthusiasm with Tracktion changed radically when I understood that many elements of this software are far away from being functional (not perfect). So, saving something in this way is wrong path.

[Lunch Money]

You guys are .

You're certainly entitled to your opinions, so I won't try to change THOSE; however--

No one application can sound more 'sterile' or 'clinical' than the other. We're talking about sound represented as bits... unless the sequencers you're using are chopping off information (to make it more muffled?) then they will ALL sound the same. Simple, basic fact.

Dunno about your problem with BFD, but it seems to me that if you read this forum, there might have been a post about Tracktion and BFD not getting along together. The fault could be with EITHER party, though even if it's T's fault, it's proven itself to be enormously stable. Even if it IS T's fault, it's pretty hard to say that the program is seriously flawed just because your one particular VST out of millions doesn't seem to work right in it. I'm not sure what you meant by "many" elements being far from functional... perhaps it was just a strange turn of a phrase, but it seems to indicate that you think that MANY elements are crippled... which is strange because I can't think of a one.

Don't get me wrong-- since BFD IS your most important tool, and for *whatever* reason, it's not working alongside T, I'd be very disappointed, too.

As for the rest-- well... people like new stuff. When you're addicted to the technology the way many of us are, it's hard to maintain romance with an app that has been at a plateau for a while. But to me and for my needs, it's still the best app for the job. No amount of hype in any other current product will change that for me. Doesn't mean I'm going to be slavishly devoted forever, but as of today, nothing else even comes close.

Greg

[AndrewSimon]

OK I am using BFD and Tracktion.
They do not get along so well but it is manageable.
I must defend however my beloved Tracktion and say that it works flawlessly with any other plugs I own.
Including big complex ones like BFD.

Most problems originate when you do "drag and drop" from the Groove Librarian or just heavily using the Groove Librarian.
Something about this process creates some trouble between the programs and from that that point on things become unstable.
So my workaround is to do all the Groove Library work first and do all the "drag and drops" I need into the piano roll.
Then I just save the song and restart Tracktion.
(you can also just restart the song itself to reload BFD, note Tracktion itself does not need restart only BFD)
After the restart everything is stable again and you can proceed with the editing and assembly of the drum piano roll without any problems.

One hopeful note both BFD and Tracktion are being actively improved all the time.
Both programs are up for a major update T2 (soon I hope) and BFD will go to version 1.5 (matter of days as I understand)
Hopefully one of these updates will clear up these issues between these two programs ... cause otherwise they are killer together.

[AndrewSimon]

Forgot to mention:

Make sure "Use Priority Mode" is NOT checked in Tracktion setting panel.

And choose "Render at X1 speed" when rendering the track.

These are two "must do" things anytime you run into problems.

[AndrewSimon]

Rock President

Here you are a professional producer who uses

Magix Sequoia --- $3000
and Samplitude --- $600

But you purchase Tracktion cause the big boys are too complex for creating drum tracks.....

WOW Tracktion must be doing something right even thou it's not a finely polished product like the big boys.
Hopefully T2 will live up to these challenges a blow away the competition big and small.

BTW can we hear any work you did on-line?

Cheers

[Rock President]

Well guys, thanks for responds.
Maybe I am a bit of old school and not very often in Internet (I do not use it extensively anyhow), so I missed info about BFD incompatibility with Tracktion.
But it happened as disaster to me.
I start to use Tracktion to save time on basic arrangements with drums,no speedier way than Tracktion, as I could combine plug ins and experiment with sounds extremely fast and well from day 1. I agree that this paradigm is so well implemented in Tracktion that return to 'big guys' sequencers in that respect is just not comfortable.
I firmly believe that problem with BFD lies in Tracktion, as BFD works properly in Magix software that was never assumed as very VSTi friendly (actually it is not so bad).
After tracking and basic editing in Tracktion, finer work in Sequoia results in polished sound comparable only to the top of the line DAWs.
Other flaws in Tracktion are related to sync with other equipment (I believe that real sync simply is not implemented) and file management (OK that is design IMHO) that requires excessive steps (and slow otherwise speed work flow). Zooming and minor things related to MIDI arranging is present, too (but I do not put it as real problem).
Bottom line is that Tracktion is comfortable, extremely attractive user interface that will be killer choice after remove of above problems.
In terms of mixing quality I will never expect that entry-level program could compete with top choice software and you would easily understand the difference if you mixdown 20+ channels of audio (with or without effect on both platforms. And difference is indeed huge, again to my ears.
But I must admit that younger listeners prefer new sound (less smooth if I can compare), due to 'spoiled' ears by MP3 and other digitized sources.
Anyhow, I'll remain in Tracktion campus until release of T2, than we'll see.

Regards
RP

[valley]

Well guys, thanks for responds.

did you try any of the tips given above?

In terms of mixing quality I will never expect that entry-level program could compete with top choice software and you would easily understand the difference if you mixdown 20+ channels of audio (with or without effect on both platforms. And difference is indeed huge, again to my ears.

A few apps (I think sequoia) do internal mixing at 64bits. This can make slight differences to summing noise.

Almost all other apps, including most "high end" apps just do standard 32 floating point math, and no matter what your ears tell you, cannot possibly give different results when summing audio short of real bugs in the code.

Given though that all effects, and instruments running natively within your sequencer are *always* producing 32bit audio, and any audio you record in is unlikely to be higher than 24bit, for the most part even the advantage given by a 64bit summing engine is somewhat limited.

Some people claim to be able to hear marked improvements by using dithering algorithms on their audio before bouncing it to 16bit, and some hosts have dithering enabled by defualt. Maybe you can hear this, but then you can dither audio in Tracktion to, so you'd have to do this to be sure you are comparing like for like.

[Rock President]

valley, correct assumption about summing, it has nothing with bits of recorded tracks it is similar to headroom issue. Just check incredibly cheap AKAI DPS-24 that has 56-bit mixing engine. It is REALLY better sounding that any Pro Tools (well, it has no capabilities of PT, so comparisons in all other respects would be wrong).
When I have to mix up to 22 channels of 24/96 tracks my dilemma is wheteher to do it in Sequoia or DPS-24 (even 200.000 $+ console will not do a better job in such task) and practically doing submixes in Sequoia and final mixdown in DPS-24 I got sonic result comparable to all, even the most expensive setups withinn 24/96 range (and indeed higher resolution is not required by 95% of clients). Only major points are ADCs and clocking that is always more expesive than all mentioned DAWs together.
Back to BFD-Tracktion. I tried all suggestions. IT DOES NOT WORK. Instability is cancer of any profesional setup. It crashes when you do not expect it. when you repeat the situation, sometimes it will not crash. Weird and desparate. Hope to see progress from both sides. BFD is product with great future I believe, still not perfect, but they do their job well. Raw Material and Mackie will be under heavy test now. If they fail, Tracktion will most likely die. At least for me and many other (semi)+professionals.

Good luck all.
RP

[Lunch Money]

Thank god there's a bunch of non-anything users who will continue to love it.

Obviously, it's in Raw Materials' best interest to offer the best support possible to all its customers, including those who use BFD. On the other hand, I don't think ONE plug-in's compatibility will make or break a host's viability. Heck, there are broken HOSTS that survived fine... Cubase 1.x anyone? And companies that continue to publish non-working plug-ins (NI, anyone?).

Greg

[Rock President]

L.M. correct.
ven with such experience as mine, I'll continue to watch what is going on after T2 finally emerges.
By the way give me advice on alternative to BFD,I tried many, but even after having good results with some of them BFD concept won (especially as multichannel VSTi) and has all chances to become industry standard.
Next step for BFD is to add good working and simple sequencer/editor to the package (T2?-Joke).

RP