MuLab & MUX Plugin 8.6.17 beta

[MuTools]

MuLab 8.6.10 is available in http://www.mutools.com/mulab/beta/

What's changed:

• An important part of the Auto Plugin Latency Compensation system has been rewritten which fixes a couple of APLC related bugs. At the same time that internal APLC code has been streamlined and optimized.
• Recording rack volume and mute was not working anymore. Fixed.
• Dropping a MuClip into a modular area did not fully work as expected. Fixed.
• Finetuned the usage of Note Key Names of rack slot plugins.
• Added a tool to list the version of all MuTools project/preset files in a folder.
• Other mini improvements.

How to update MuLab:
Windows: Replace the current MuLab.exe and MuLab.ID by the new versions.
MacOS: Replace the current MuLab.app by the new version.

[MuTools]

M8.6.10 beta for MacOS available as well.

[dreammachine_nl]

• An important part of the Auto Plugin Latency Compensation system has been rewritten which fixes a couple of APLC related bugs. At the same time that internal APLC code has been streamlined and optimized.

Hi Jo,
Most of the APLC bugs (from viewtopic.php?f=79&t=547229) are fixed by your update, but there are some issues:

Minor question concerning bug report #1: the play cursor and time displays now become out of sync at latency > [1/2 sample rate] samples (24k in my case), instead of at latency > [sample rate] samples. Did you expect this?

Concerning bug report #2: live playing a synth on a parallel Track works but not in the case when any other module is inserted in the synth Rack (after the synth) and that module (or any part of it, e.g. some knob) is linked to a Track. I'll show you an example with the Note Gater, but it also applies to other modules, for example a reverb module where you try to automate some parameter of that reverb (= linking to a track).

See my project example & steps:

• play project and live play the Note Gater Track (works fine & visuals of the Note Event Module are okay now)
• switch off the Note Gater Module in the Rack
• try live playing the Basic Synt Track 2 (doesn't work, there is latency)
• set target of Note Gater Track to 'none' so the link to the Note Gater module is destroyed
• try live playing the Basic Synt Track 2 (works)

[dreammachine_nl]

Ah, after some more thinking I realise that the second issue is technically inevitable; am I right? Any automation through a Track needs to follow the same overall latency of the project. So, when a module after the synth is not linked to a Track the synth still can be live played, but as soon as you link the module to a Track Mulab expects that you will want to automate (or send events or whatever to) that module, so it will be delayed. Even if you have no Parts on that Track yet.

Here's some food for thought (don't take this as a FR): when no Parts are on the automation Track yet or the Track is muted, or all/some Parts are muted, should it then still be possible to live play the synth? Or even when the song position cursor is not hitting any automation on that Track yet/anymore?

Edit: it also means that putting some automation on a parameter inside the parallel synth itself (so without any other modules inserted after it) makes the synth not live playable anymore.

[MuTools]

Thanks for your interesting observations DM, much appreciated!
I see your points and am looking for a way to further optimize the live play aspect so it works in all complex modular cases.
I have an idea, already prototyped it and it seems to work fine but will sleep over it and properly test & optimize it further tomorrow.

[MuTools]

MuLab 8.6.11 is available in http://www.mutools.com/mulab/beta/

This update further optimizes live playing of plugins even in a more complex modular setup with various plugin latencies.

How to update MuLab:
Windows: Replace the current MuLab.exe and MuLab.ID by the new versions.
MacOS: Replace the current MuLab.app by the new version.

[dreammachine_nl]

Amazing work! I've gone through all previously mentioned APLC issues again and they all do work fine now. I noticed it's now even possible to live play a module from within the Project Modular Area, without linking that module to a Track first. These are really nice improvements, thanks!


I hope you don’t mind, but I actually have two more points, the first of which isn’t really bugging me (don’t consider it a FR either), I just wanted to run it by you. The second one is not APLC related, but an issue concerning the soloing/muting of send Racks which I’ve found inconvenient since I started following MuLab.

Consider the case of a hardware send/return effect with inherent latency & a (software) synth. I’ve mimicked this situation in the picture below. A synth directly goes to Master and sends post fader to a hardware reverb (mimicked by MuVerb and Pure Delay) and the reverb is sent back into Mulab (to the Ext. Reverb Rack). For easy access I’ve placed the Latency Generator inside that Rack. Now, live playing the synth is not possible, the audio is always delayed. The only solution in this case is to switch off the Latency Generator (hence placed inside the Rack for easy access).

APDC Ext Effect.png

Now, sometimes during composing you may want to mute the external reverb (= muting the Ext. Reverb Rack) and live play the synth. But muting the Ext. Reverb Rack of course doesn’t disable the Latency Generator. It’s really not that much of a hassle but you have to switch off the Latency Generator inside that muted Rack as well.

What do you think? Should the synth be live playable in the situation shown in the picture (even if that means the reverb is delayed)? Of course it doesn’t make much sense when the send effect is switched on, but when muting it, it does make sense.

Again: just asking for your opinion. It’ a minor thing; switching on/off one extra module doesn’t affect the workflow much.


The second point is a general one, but I’ll explain it using the picture above.

Step 1: solo the Basic Synth Rack. Since its audio goes to the Master Rack and the Reverb Rack those are solo’ed too. You explained elsewhere on this forum that the soloing system works by muting all other Racks (hence the new feature ‘Consolidate Mutes’)

Step 2: Now also mute the Basic Synth Rack. Of course the Solo button overrides the mute (although the mute button is shown dimmed) so you can still play the Synth. All okay.

Step 3: Unsolo and unmute the Basic Synth Rack. Mute the Reverb Rack. Play the synth. Everything as expected.

Step 4: Solo the Basic Synth Rack. The Master Rack is auto-solo’ed and so is the Reverb Rack. Remember, the Reverb Rack was muted before (and the Mute button is now dimmed). But, because in general your algorithm for soloing overrides mute, there is no obvious way to mute the Reverb Rack except by dragging its gain fader down to zero. Which you don’t want because it messes up your perfect mixer settings. I found the following workaround: I use the ‘Consolidate Mutes’ function, but then I have to re-mute the Reverb Rack as that function clears all Solos including the ones that were muted too.

I think Solo should override Mute in the ‘source’ Rack, but not in the Racks where the audio is sent to (in this case the Master and Reverb Rack). Does that make sense?

Thanks again, stay safe & regards, TDM

[MuTools]

Amazing work! I've gone through all previously mentioned APLC issues again and they all do work fine now. I noticed it's now even possible to live play a module from within the Project Modular Area, without linking that module to a Track first. These are really nice improvements, thanks!

Unfortunately i discovered a disadvantage of the new APLC Live Play strategy: When switching APLC tracks there can be an unpleasant audio gap while latency compensations are being switched. Technically it is correct but from musical pov this is not ideal. Searching for a solution. I'll reply on the other issues you reported lateron.

[MuTools]

Unfortunately i discovered a disadvantage of the new APLC Live Play strategy: When switching APLC tracks there can be an unpleasant audio gap while latency compensations are being switched. Technically it is correct but from musical pov this is not ideal. Searching for a solution.

The next M8.6.12 uses another strategy wrt Live Play while some plugins use a latency. Hopefully this new attempt proves to play fine in all modular cases. And it has no audio gaps when switching tracks = when switching the live midi input.

Consider the case of a hardware send/return effect with inherent latency & a (software) synth. I’ve mimicked this situation in the picture below. A synth directly goes to Master and sends post fader to a hardware reverb (mimicked by MuVerb and Pure Delay) and the reverb is sent back into Mulab (to the Ext. Reverb Rack). For easy access I’ve placed the Latency Generator inside that Rack. Now, live playing the synth is not possible, the audio is always delayed. The only solution in this case is to switch off the Latency Generator (hence placed inside the Rack for easy access).
Now, sometimes during composing you may want to mute the external reverb (= muting the Ext. Reverb Rack) and live play the synth. But muting the Ext. Reverb Rack of course doesn’t disable the Latency Generator. It’s really not that much of a hassle but you have to switch off the Latency Generator inside that muted Rack as well. What do you think? Should the synth be live playable in the situation shown in the picture (even if that means the reverb is delayed)? Of course it doesn’t make much sense when the send effect is switched on, but when muting it, it does make sense.
Again: just asking for your opinion. It’ a minor thing; switching on/off one extra module doesn’t affect the workflow much.

I'm not sure if i fully understand but i double-checked that when a rack contains a plug with latency then muting that rack does properly ignore the latency of that plugin because the rack is muted. So in the example you gave, when you mute that latency rack, then you should be able to play the synth live, right?

The second point is a general one, but I’ll explain it using the picture above.
Step 1: solo the Basic Synth Rack. Since its audio goes to the Master Rack and the Reverb Rack those are solo’ed too. You explained elsewhere on this forum that the soloing system works by muting all other Racks (hence the new feature ‘Consolidate Mutes’)

Step 2: Now also mute the Basic Synth Rack. Of course the Solo button overrides the mute (although the mute button is shown dimmed) so you can still play the Synth. All okay.

Step 3: Unsolo and unmute the Basic Synth Rack. Mute the Reverb Rack. Play the synth. Everything as expected.

Step 4: Solo the Basic Synth Rack. The Master Rack is auto-solo’ed and so is the Reverb Rack. Remember, the Reverb Rack was muted before (and the Mute button is now dimmed). But, because in general your algorithm for soloing overrides mute, there is no obvious way to mute the Reverb Rack except by dragging its gain fader down to zero. Which you don’t want because it messes up your perfect mixer settings. I found the following workaround: I use the ‘Consolidate Mutes’ function, but then I have to re-mute the Reverb Rack as that function clears all Solos including the ones that were muted too.

I think Solo should override Mute in the ‘source’ Rack, but not in the Racks where the audio is sent to (in this case the Master and Reverb Rack). Does that make sense?

I see your point and have taken note about it for later evaluation.

Thanks for all your constructive feedback

[MuTools]

MuLab 8.6.12 is available in http://www.mutools.com/mulab/beta/

This update further optimizes live playing of plugins even in a more complex modular setup with various plugin latencies.

How to update MuLab:
Windows: Replace the current MuLab.exe and MuLab.ID by the new versions.
MacOS: Replace the current MuLab.app by the new version.

[dakkra]

I'm happy to report that all of my outstanding APLC issues have been solved as of M8.6.12 Well done Jo!

[dreammachine_nl]

I just did some thorough testing of all previous APLC issues. All (also switching Tracks) but one are fine now. Only the one with the synth and send/return effect is not working correctly anymore (in 8.6.11 it was okay, except for direct live playing).

Here is a simplified version of the setup I showed you before (project also attached) to clarify.

APDC Ext Effect 2.png

Step 1: live play the synth. This is now possible: you hear the synth directly + the delayed path afterwards (as expected).
Step 2: see project file; there are notes in the synth Track. Press Play. Play cursor is delayed as expected; the direct synth audio path is in sync with the play cursor, but the delayed path (with latency generator) is not in sync like it should be (in 8.6.11 this was working fine).

I like the fact that live playing in a case like this is now possible, but it seems to have screwed up the APLC system here. So if it's a choice between these two, APLC should win .

If both could be made to work correctly at the same time, the matter of muting (see below) is not relevant anymore.

I'm not sure if i fully understand but i double-checked that when a rack contains a plug with latency then muting that rack does properly ignore the latency of that plugin because the rack is muted. So in the example you gave, when you mute that latency rack, then you should be able to play the synth live, right?

[MuTools]

Thanks DM!
The next M8.6.14 should fix that.

[MuTools]

MuLab 8.6.14 is available in http://www.mutools.com/mulab/beta/

What's changed:

• Further optimization of live playing plugins even in a more complex modular setup with various plugin latencies.
• Finetuned the Mute-Solo system.

How to update MuLab:
Windows: Replace the current MuLab.exe and MuLab.ID by the new versions.
MacOS: Replace the current MuLab.app by the new version.

[dreammachine_nl]

Like Dakkra said: well done . I think the APLC works fine in this last beta version.

About the finetuned Mute-Solo system for Racks: it works great, I like your solution. I noticed that it works for the entire audio path chain (both downwards and upwards from the Rack you solo'ed).


Just a final thought: do you think it would be consistent to carry through this Mute-Solo system to Tracks with subtracks as well? Or are there reasons to stick to the current system?

See picture below: I muted subtrack 2 before soloing track 1. Track 2 shows the mute button dimmed, but the track 1 solo overrides it.

MuteSoloTrack1.png

If you still want to mute track 2 in this case, only unsoloing it does the trick.

MuteSoloTrack2.png

Maybe with Tracks it makes more sense to do it this way (instead of the system now implemented on the Racks), but just wondering.

Regards, TDM