VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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TheWaveWarden
KVRist
173 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Post Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:14 pm

Weasel-Boy wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:07 pm
I wouldn't mind a set of dry/wet controls for Filter 3...so you could independently pass as little or as much of Filters 1&2 through it.
Wouldn't mind an independent set of Unison controls for each oscillator instead of the global arrangement either.

And one last thing: mute switches for the oscillators.
Dry-Wet is an interesting Idea. Have you tried the OH-12 filter? It kinda does this in its design (put it in between 'LP' and 'Notch' to have a lowpass with some signal coming through still)

I get the unison per osc requested all the time, so I'll post the graphic here why it is not possible:


routing.png


As you can see, the signal before the amplifier ist polyphonic, but it is also mono. Therefore oscs can not be panned individually. Changing this would be a major operation on the open heart. But more importantly, there would need to be four instead of two filters for Filter 1 & 2. And those go heavy on the CPU.

You can mute the oscillators with the input buttons on the filter or the 'Type' - dropdowns. I understand this is not as convenient as having a dedicated mute button though.
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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
4401 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:38 am

You could turn all toggle buttons into knobs, and you could add for each oscillator an input to the amplifier, that would allow to route an oscillator directly into the amp. Your amplifier is basically a mixer, there you might be able to pan the inputs...

I am having lots of fun playing Odin expressively in MPE mode by routing each midi channel to its own instance. Of course it would be gorgeous if it would support MPE out of the box. My little trick in Bitwig eats CPU for breakfast...

This is such a nice sounding synth, can’t mention it often enough and the OSC shows off its potential already...

Weasel-Boy
KVRist
146 posts since 12 May, 2004

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:14 pm

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Dry-Wet is an interesting Idea. Have you tried the OH-12 filter? It kinda does this in its design (put it in between 'LP' and 'Notch' to have a lowpass with some signal coming through still).
I have…and yes…”kinda does this”. But what I’m after is treating Filter 3 more like is part of the effects chain. I discovered that some of the filter types, when modulated, can impart a pseudo-flange/chorus-y type effect and I thought to myself…hmmm…a dry/wet control from the Amp feed would let me mix as much or as little of that…just like the effects chain. After looking at your routing diagram, I realized separating Filters 1 & 2 to pull this stunt off individually would most likely be a nightmare to pull off. So my suggestion is in this mod to your diagram, illustrating what I’d like to see.
routingsuggestion.png

TheWaveWarden wrote:
I get the unison per osc requested all the time, so I'll post the graphic here why it is not possible:
….As you can see, the signal before the amplifier ist polyphonic, but it is also mono. Therefore oscs can not be panned individually. Changing this would be a major operation on the open heart. But more importantly, there would need to be four instead of two filters for Filter 1 & 2. And those go heavy on the CPU.
I get it. Incredibly invasive and inefficient.

TheWaveWarden wrote:
You can mute the oscillators with the input buttons on the filter or the 'Type' - dropdowns. I understand this is not as convenient as having a dedicated mute button though.
I’ve been using the filter 1,2,3,F Buttons to do just that. However I felt that for the sake of expediency, a mute button on each Osc. would keep the focus where it oughta be, while dialing in stuff on the oscillators. As the functionality exists in the filter modules, I can live without it. Never hurts to ask, though.

Thanks for entertaining my suggestions. You have built a really nice bit of kit here. I don't think I've had this much fun creating sounds from scratch in a synth in quite a while. Pretty darn inspiring, actually.
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On a number of Macs

rafa1981
KVRist
171 posts since 4 Jan, 2007

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:02 am

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:14 pm
As you can see, the signal before the amplifier ist polyphonic, but it is also mono. Therefore oscs can not be panned individually. Changing this would be a major operation on the open heart. But more importantly, there would need to be four instead of two filters for Filter 1 & 2. And those go heavy on the CPU.
I would say that:
  • The 4 filters wouldn't need to be enabled when pan is centered and unison disabled
  • CPUs get faster and faster

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
4401 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:06 pm

Here are some sounds I made for the OSC, though I used only one. All except Odin's Arp are meant to be played expressively for example with a LinnStrument. But therefore I had to load several instances into an instrument selector in Bitwig and set the mode to free-robin.
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Eclectrophonic
KVRist
152 posts since 24 Aug, 2014

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:56 pm

I don't know if this has been suggested already (apologies if it has) but what would be great is, if you could click the LFO's shape display and a table of all LFO shapes would appear for you to quickly choose from and a downward ramp lfo shape.

Also (again sorry if I've missed it) osc sync is missing and a sub-oscillator addition on some of the oscillators would be great.

Also a linear to exponential switch for the envelopes.

It could do with more effects too, especially reverb but also EQ, Compression and either Bitcrush, an Exciter or Saturation. I notice there's saturation on some of the filters (not comb) but that would be different than saturation as an effect wouldn't it?

Unison too, the width isn't unison is it?

GeneralQ
KVRer
13 posts since 10 Sep, 2019

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:11 pm

I have got some questions:
- Whats the Deadline for sending in Patches I made ?
- Can one tell you an Artist name to include in the credits for the patch libary once it gets released ? :P
- I have a list with requests/suggestions should I post it here or send you that via mail ?

User avatar
TheWaveWarden
KVRist
173 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:22 am

Hi all, sorry I've been so quiet. I'm getting back into the whole Odin-dev thing as we speak :) (Good vibes from the OSC-results)
GeneralQ wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:11 pm
I have got some questions:
- Whats the Deadline for sending in Patches I made ?
- Can one tell you an Artist name to include in the credits for the patch libary once it gets released ? :P
- I have a list with requests/suggestions should I post it here or send you that via mail ?
No deadline, just send them to me.
For crediting, please name the path as following convention:

Some Patch Name [Optional Patch Creator Name]

You can post them here or send them to me, however you like.

GeneralQ
KVRer
13 posts since 10 Sep, 2019

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:26 am

Ok thanks for your answer. So before I post my suggestions here I would like to point out that this is a really good synth and it's easily one of the best free vsts I have seen.
So here are my points:
- The Voice Modes are weird from outher syths I know
- The Mono Legato works not kinda how I would expect as it seems to trigger the glide on any note and not only on conjuncting ones.
- Usually synths have both legato and portamento. Odin has legato but it behaves like portamento
- The Mono mode works only once. On other synths it would go back and forth endlessly when you play two notes back and forth. Odin only works on the first one.
- It would be cool to set up loger glide times. But changing this would ruin presets you already have.
- Unison with control on the top could also allow more extreme values. But changing this would ruin presets you already have.
- The Multi OSC is a nice Idea but I kinda don't like how it sounds. The global unison is way better. It would need a voice count control and a with control as well.
- There is no lfo amount in the routing section. This would be a nice addition as its a very common control.
- It would b cool if you could modulate x and y since you can control multiple controls at once with it.
- If I modulate anything in the mod matrix I get this slider from -100 to 100. It would be cool if I could put this amount at least on the modwheel.
- A reverb fx would be dope. I know it's a difficuilt fx to make. Maybe a dev from a free reverb unit could supply you an algorithm.
- A compressor would be nice as well.
- I really don't like the file browser you have implemented. I am using windows. If you have access to reaper daw on a windows 10 you could check this. In the render export settings where you chosse a path you have two options. Browse for file and browse for folder. The browse for file gives you the default windows explorer that also opens up when you press windows + e on the keyboard. The browse for folder options opens the bad explorer thats similair to the one in odin. But the one from reaper at least has the option to copy paste a path in there. With odins browser I would need to navigate throgh all my folders on my harddrive which is really annoying. I don't know what you use to code this. But the windows api usually offers better browsers as well (don't know for other os).
- Renaming the "Reset" button to "Init" would be more intuitive.


Seems like a long list of complaints but as said it's a really good synth already. Kudos for making it.

User avatar
TheWaveWarden
KVRist
173 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:15 am

GeneralQ wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:26 am
Ok thanks for your answer. So before I post my suggestions here I would like to point out that this is a really good synth and it's easily one of the best free vsts I have seen.
So here are my points:
- The Voice Modes are weird from outher syths I know
- The Mono Legato works not kinda how I would expect as it seems to trigger the glide on any note and not only on conjuncting ones.
- Usually synths have both legato and portamento. Odin has legato but it behaves like portamento
- The Mono mode works only once. On other synths it would go back and forth endlessly when you play two notes back and forth. Odin only works on the first one.
- It would be cool to set up loger glide times. But changing this would ruin presets you already have.
- Unison with control on the top could also allow more extreme values. But changing this would ruin presets you already have.
- The Multi OSC is a nice Idea but I kinda don't like how it sounds. The global unison is way better. It would need a voice count control and a with control as well.
- There is no lfo amount in the routing section. This would be a nice addition as its a very common control.
- It would b cool if you could modulate x and y since you can control multiple controls at once with it.
- If I modulate anything in the mod matrix I get this slider from -100 to 100. It would be cool if I could put this amount at least on the modwheel.
- A reverb fx would be dope. I know it's a difficuilt fx to make. Maybe a dev from a free reverb unit could supply you an algorithm.
- A compressor would be nice as well.
- I really don't like the file browser you have implemented. I am using windows. If you have access to reaper daw on a windows 10 you could check this. In the render export settings where you chosse a path you have two options. Browse for file and browse for folder. The browse for file gives you the default windows explorer that also opens up when you press windows + e on the keyboard. The browse for folder options opens the bad explorer thats similair to the one in odin. But the one from reaper at least has the option to copy paste a path in there. With odins browser I would need to navigate throgh all my folders on my harddrive which is really annoying. I don't know what you use to code this. But the windows api usually offers better browsers as well (don't know for other os).
- Renaming the "Reset" button to "Init" would be more intuitive.


Seems like a long list of complaints but as said it's a really good synth already. Kudos for making it.
Thanks for your detailed feedback! I'm gonna answer briefly, some of the points you made were already discussed here.
  • Legato behaviour will be changed before release
  • Not sure what your mean: Portamento means "Glide" in my books, but Legato is a voicing option? How do these two relate?
  • Extending parameter values would not break older patches. I could simply update the range from [0,1] to [0,2]. I've tried this with the Unison params a while back and it didn't seem so big an improvement to me.
  • You can control LFO amount via the "Scale" parameter in the modmatrix. It's not exactly the same as what you propose. This was mentioned here before and is on my "maybe-list"
  • Multi-Osc was created way before the unison was implemented. It was meant as a replacement for unison of kinds. It isn't the greatest of the oscs, I admit :wink:
  • Modulating X and Y will come in the next version 2.2
  • Again, modulation scaling (control modmaount by modwheel) is done via the "Scale" tab
  • Reverb is really hard to get right. To be honest, I don't have a good idea how to implement a good reverb :wink: I think you're better off using the usually very competent reverb in your DAW. As for compressor, I don't think it's something which belongs inside the synthesis engine (just personal taste).
  • The filebrowser comes natively with JUCE. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes there. However, version 2.2 will implement a patchbrowser which is integrated into the synthesizer itself. While you can still save/load patches from anywhere (with the old browser), most of the patch-browsing will be done without ever leaving the GUI.

GeneralQ
KVRer
13 posts since 10 Sep, 2019

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:25 am

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:15 am
  • Not sure what your mean: Portamento means "Glide" in my books, but Legato is a voicing option? How do these two relate?
Im not shure if these are official terms because every synth seems to have different names for the same stuff. I refered to the naming convention that spire uses.

Basically most synth have 4 mono modes which results from a combination of 2 different settings.
- Pitch glides from every note that is played to the next one (this is what i would call portamento)
- Pitch glides only to the next note when two notes overlap (this is what i would call legato)
- envelopes are triggered on every played note
- envelopes are triggered only when two notes overlap

In spire you can select 4 different mono modes and serum does have an "always" checkbox for the glide trigger and an "legato" for the envelope trigger.
Odin does always trigger envelopes and also always triggers the glide.

Hope that makes sense

User avatar
Saffran
KVRist
436 posts since 20 Oct, 2018

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:24 am

About unison.
I can hear a difference between unison 1,2 and 3. Unison 4 and upwards doesn't differ from unison 3 in an audible way.
Is unison 4 and higher only a theory or does one have to use certain settings to get a practical use of it?

User avatar
TheWaveWarden
KVRist
173 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:48 am

Saffran wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:24 am
About unison.
I can hear a difference between unison 1,2 and 3. Unison 4 and upwards doesn't differ from unison 3 in an audible way.
Is unison 4 and higher only a theory or does one have to use certain settings to get a practical use of it?
It's hard for your brain to differentiate "lots of voices" from "loooads of voices" :wink:
But they are definitely there. Maybe increasing detune or width might help differentiate (if you want "proof of it")

surreal
KVRAF
1507 posts since 3 Dec, 2006

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:20 am

Can I still join the beta and will I get a NFR licence on release?

User avatar
TheWaveWarden
KVRist
173 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Re: VST/AU Synth Beta Testers: Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

Post Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:16 pm

surreal wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:20 am
Can I still join the beta and will I get a NFR licence on release?
Odin 2 is freeware. Now and after release :wink:

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