Anyone else excited for what Ableton has been working on?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
xylyx
KVRist
445 posts since 14 Aug, 2001

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:23 am

You normally needed to slightly adjust the width of the track and then the device names would show. Probably why it has remained an options.txt only option.

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Rivanni
KVRist
375 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:49 am

Nm

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pdxindy
KVRAF
16943 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:02 am

aMUSEd wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:16 am
machinesworking wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:16 pm
Hopefully it's MPE capable at least. It's weird that the DAW named for performance, does not support without a script or painful busy work MPE?
afaik it doesn't even support poly aftertouch at the moment
Adding PolyAT support in Live (for a non coder like me) seems trivial. The fact that Push is PolyAT capable but Ableton has never used it because Live cannot record PolyAT points to some sort of deeper difficulty.

Live also doesn't have midi channel support either... which is necessary for MPE

Also, Live has licensed code from other developers and has M4L. It could be a tremendous amount of work to integrate MPE into the core of the application and have everything work seamlessly.

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Yorrrrrr
KVRian
1143 posts since 25 Sep, 2011 from Colombia

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:17 am

A much as I love Live, the wait for something significant from them is depressing.The pace of development seems so slow to me; other DAWs are catching up to Live, but Live is not catching up to them in some basic features. It's no longer unique, there's no innovation. I don't know why, because Ableton seems to have a pretty large team.
Last edited by Yorrrrrr on Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dalle
KVRer
20 posts since 24 Oct, 2015

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:31 am

MIDI 2.0 is my bet.

Winstontaneous
KVRAF
1868 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:39 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:02 am
aMUSEd wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:16 am
machinesworking wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:16 pm
Hopefully it's MPE capable at least. It's weird that the DAW named for performance, does not support without a script or painful busy work MPE?
afaik it doesn't even support poly aftertouch at the moment
Adding PolyAT support in Live (for a non coder like me) seems trivial. The fact that Push is PolyAT capable but Ableton has never used it because Live cannot record PolyAT points to some sort of deeper difficulty.

Live also doesn't have midi channel support either... which is necessary for MPE

Also, Live has licensed code from other developers and has M4L. It could be a tremendous amount of work to integrate MPE into the core of the application and have everything work seamlessly.
It's worth noting that David Zicarelli (of Cycling '74, which is now owned by Ableton and makes Max/MSP) mentions MPE is one of the features he uses most in Max in the new KVR interview. Ableton surely has access to the means in-house to make it happen.

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inkwarp
KVRian
836 posts since 16 Jan, 2012 from UK

Post Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:12 pm

the selection methods/tools need a proper over-haul.
It's really annoying as it is.
they could also work on the quantisation settings ( for the grids).. too fussy at the moment.
the browser needs work still.
the ability to customise layout would be good.
customisable shortcuts come to that...

edit: Forgot, I would like to have an ability to make copies of clips either linked or unlinked. Every time you copy and paste in Ableton it automatically creates a unique copy. Would be great to have linked ones also so that editing one edits all the instances and copies that are 'linked'.

Kinh
KVRian
1407 posts since 26 Aug, 2012

Post Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 am

Yorrrrrr wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:17 am
A much as I love Live, the wait for something significant from them is depressing.The pace of development seems so slow to me; other DAWs are catching up to Live, but Live is not catching up to them in some basic features. It's no longer unique, there's no innovation. I don't know why, because Ableton seems to have a pretty large team.
I dont think ya know what ya talkin' bout mate :)

machinesworking
KVRAF
2442 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:42 am

Kinh wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 am
Yorrrrrr wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:17 am
A much as I love Live, the wait for something significant from them is depressing.The pace of development seems so slow to me; other DAWs are catching up to Live, but Live is not catching up to them in some basic features. It's no longer unique, there's no innovation. I don't know why, because Ableton seems to have a pretty large team.
I dont think ya know what ya talkin' bout mate :)
I've used Live since v3, and without a doubt the pace of development has slowed significantly since v8.

Since they introduced Max 4 Live things have slowed. My thoughts when it happened were that it would take a huge amount of resources behind the scenes to make sure it all works without too many bugs, and that it would slow development of other areas in Live down. I do not think I was wrong about that. If you're a big fan of "build your own" tools like Max then this isn't a big deal, if you're not, it is.

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Mister Natural
KVRAF
2505 posts since 28 Oct, 2007 from michigan

Post Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:23 pm

I still don't use half the tricks and sexy-stuff inside v.10 - what do I need v.11 for ?
...is your question

-the color "favorites" inside the browser seems kinda clunky - wish that were able to be organized better(and I don't have the answers as to how)
-the most current versions of the AAS synths(analog, collision, electric, tension) - AAS has v.2.0 of all of these and the newer UltraAnalog is a monster
-MAX needs more midi efx to be native - sometimes a new, tricky aftermarket MAXdevice might work; sometimes it doesn't (without a hack of my workflow)
peace
expert only on me & you are who you google
https://soundcloud.com/mrnatural-1/tracks

dolomick
KVRer
15 posts since 21 May, 2004

Post Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:05 pm

Live is really disappointing me with its glacial pace of development. Studio One and Bitwig have done sooooo much cool stuff in the past few years and Ableton still lacks so many things. I actually like how it’s kind of basic because it makes it less cluttered, but at the same time there are a ton of annoying little things that it can’t do or doesn’t do well that are leading me to look elsewhere.

Kinh
KVRian
1407 posts since 26 Aug, 2012

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:48 pm

dolomick wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:05 pm
Live is really disappointing me with its glacial pace of development. Studio One and Bitwig have done sooooo much cool stuff in the past few years and Ableton still lacks so many things. I actually like how it’s kind of basic because it makes it less cluttered, but at the same time there are a ton of annoying little things that it can’t do or doesn’t do well that are leading me to look elsewhere.
What things? You can create complex music with it, isn't that enough?

quincy
KVRAF
1762 posts since 15 Nov, 2003 from London, UK

Post Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:55 pm

Kinh wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:48 pm
dolomick wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:05 pm
Live is really disappointing me with its glacial pace of development. Studio One and Bitwig have done sooooo much cool stuff in the past few years and Ableton still lacks so many things. I actually like how it’s kind of basic because it makes it less cluttered, but at the same time there are a ton of annoying little things that it can’t do or doesn’t do well that are leading me to look elsewhere.
What things? You can create complex music with it, isn't that enough?
For me it's about the workflow details. I actually think, on it's own terms, that Live is a very stable and mature piece of software but there are a few things that are behind other DAWs that can be very frustrating.

For example, if I want to use one of the many interesting MIDI devices on the market I have to use 2 tracks so I can "pipe" the MIDI notes from one track to another. I cannot just drop a VST synth onto a track and then put a MIDI device in front of it. Similar annoyance with modulation capabilities. Unless I pay for the top tier Ableton Live Suite version I can't add a generic LFO or envelope and assign it to any parameter (or multiple parameters) I like, which is possible with Bitwig and others. Having to have Max4Live, which is essentially a whole other bit of software, running in the background to even add an LFO to an FX parameter is very blunt tool for a simple task. When I tried it, my CPU jumped by a few percent for every Max4Live LFO or envelope I added and I couldn't even apply different amounts of LFO to different target parameters which felt very restrictive.

As I said before I think Live is a solid bit of software but whereas it felt "cutting edge" some years ago it doesn't now. It is very good at what it does, but a few "modern" features are lacking and many of the Max4Live solutions are frankly not that great. I hang onto my Ableton Intro 10 becasue it's probably not worth selling and I'm waiting to see what changes but it's taking a long time. I keep going back to try it and being irritated at a few missing features that are available in many other cheaper DAWs but still not even £450 top-tier version of Live.

Still a good DAW though, just to be clear, and I wait keenly to see what's next.

Trancit
KVRAF
2853 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:11 am

quincy wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:55 pm
For me it's about the workflow details. ...
Sometimes things are how they are and nothing which can easily be changed or it would be meaningful to change...
For example, if I want to use one of the many interesting MIDI devices on the market I have to use 2 tracks so I can "pipe" the MIDI notes from one track to another. I cannot just drop a VST synth onto a track and then put a MIDI device in front of it.
Which is the same for every major Sequencer on the market... they all work like this...Cubase, S1, Logic, Cakewalk... the only exceptions are Reaper and Bitwig... or you perhaps prefer an even worse way like FL Studio does...
I would say Ableton is in a very good position there...
Similar annoyance with modulation capabilities. ...which is possible with Bitwig and others. ...
Tell me more about how many others...
How many DAWs have actually a good modulation system??? Tbh...one... Bitwig... perhaps Reason... more or less but by far not what I would call a good modulation...i.e. Reaper...

With all this modulation madness nowadays people tend to forget that it´s actually the job of the synth or effect to offer modulations and less the job of any DAW...
tbh Ableton has a very powerfull modulation system inbuilt in it´s clips...
You have to make your hands dirty...yes... but it´s far more flexible and powerfull than any Bitwig modulator ever could be... and to use M4L for a few other things shouldn´t harm your CPU that much...

Again: Ableton is in a very very good position here... this is whining on a very high level here... imho...

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antic604
KVRAF
5654 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:26 am

Trancit wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:11 am
tbh Ableton has a very powerfull modulation system inbuilt in it´s clips... You have to make your hands dirty...yes... but it´s far more flexible and powerfull than any Bitwig modulator ever could be...
Excuse me? Assuming you're talking about dummy clips, Bitwig can do the same automation tricks with clips that Live can, so I can't see how the former is "far more flexible and powerful"?

EDIT: oh, unless you mean the rectangle you can now draw around automation and stretch & bend it? Yeah, that can only partially be replicated with additive / multiplicative automation in Bitwig, but e.g. stretching is not available :(

Trancit wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:11 am
With all this modulation madness nowadays people tend to forget that it´s actually the job of the synth or effect to offer modulations and less the job of any DAW...
In many cases that's true, but also: a) most FX don't offer any or enough modulation options, b) sometimes you need a global modulation, that can be applied to several devices, e.g. you want to at once reduce cut-off on a synth plugin, increase drive in saturation plugin and make the panorama wider for the 'side' signal; all in varying amounts, but still together. That's a lot of manual work, if you don't have global modulation system, like Bitwig's.

Obviously not all - a small minority, actually - of music needs it, so I can see your point there in that sense.

I definitely agree with the other poster that Live's LFO / Shaper / Env. Follower devices shouldn't be tied to Suite / M4L and shouldn't incurr such a big CPU hit. Last time I checked it was 10x more than Bitwig's equivalent.
Last edited by antic604 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 5 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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