Korg wavestate

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JCJR wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 am I bought samplers to sample with. Some of my favorite sounds I used were my own samples.
My interest in a sampler is for using my own samples. A new analog hardware sampler would interest me. I love the sound of my own samples through the analog circuits of the Elektron Rytm. If Elektron made an 8voice poly analog sampler that would be an instant buy for me. I could also go for a digital sampler than has some lively and dynamic character.

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pdxindy wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:31 pm
JCJR wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 am I bought samplers to sample with. Some of my favorite sounds I used were my own samples.
My interest in a sampler is for using my own samples. A new analog hardware sampler would interest me. I love the sound of my own samples through the analog circuits of the Elektron Rytm. If Elektron made an 8voice poly analog sampler that would be an instant buy for me. I could also go for a digital sampler than has some lively and dynamic character.
I know what you meant, but I still feel compelled to point out that ALL samplers are digital samplers, except possibly for the Mellotron and its later knockoffs.

I have a Wavestate and love it. I still wish it could load custom samples. Not sample internally, mind you, but import them. That would open up whole areas of creativity which aren’t currently available.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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deastman wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:01 pm
pdxindy wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:31 pm
JCJR wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 am I bought samplers to sample with. Some of my favorite sounds I used were my own samples.
My interest in a sampler is for using my own samples. A new analog hardware sampler would interest me. I love the sound of my own samples through the analog circuits of the Elektron Rytm. If Elektron made an 8voice poly analog sampler that would be an instant buy for me. I could also go for a digital sampler than has some lively and dynamic character.
I know what you meant, but I still feel compelled to point out that ALL samplers are digital samplers, except possibly for the Mellotron and its later knockoffs.

I have a Wavestate and love it. I still wish it could load custom samples. Not sample internally, mind you, but import them. That would open up whole areas of creativity which aren’t currently available.
Obviously the Osc part is digital... but in the Rytm, after the digital osc, it is a fully analog signal path, including filter, vca, analog distortion and analog compression.

I look forward to getting my hands on a Wavestate at some point!

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Wavestate fan boy here-

Well, after having this for a couple weeks - I love it. Easily one of my favorite synths next to the Virus Ti and JP8000. It sounds like a dream. I stand by my previous comment being a nostalgia box. It mostly has an 80s/90s feel, but goes beyond with some real power and detail along with it to sound very modern too. Almost everything sounds creamy with a cool digital twist and dark reverb.

The biggest problem I have with most synths these days is just how buzzy they all sound. I think that is why I generally like samplers (although VST - cheap and easy). The wavestate has that wholesome sampler sound I like - no harsh buzzy noise - and offers something more than most in-the-box samplers. If I have any gripe with it, its that it can be too complex to program. But you need to expect to dedicate some amount of time for menu-diving to making your own sounds. Some of the presets I've made are just awesome, and I'm not that great of a sound designer. Plus, the randomize function is awesome that you can randomize everything, certain layers, certain lanes, sequences, etc. It's very granular, fast, and easy to use with great results.

At the end of the day, I usually get excited over synths that are unique and have a sound you just can't recreate easily with other instruments. I believe the Wavestate is another one of those in that category of a unique special flavor you just can't easily recreate, but also has such a high-quality to it that you shouldn't even try to recreate. People compare this to Omnisphere, and I can see the similarities, but I definitely can't hear them. And I love Omnisphere for what it is, but the wavestate has a higher-quality sound and flavor in my opinion.

As far as the sample import feature - that would be cool - even if it were to just add my own voice to it to mess around with lol, but there really are so many samples to choose from, that I can't see myself needing more any time soon. I did see a video where they hinted at the fact that sample import could be coming, and that the synth has space for more samples. It would be awesome if they did, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

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lfm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:37 am
JCJR wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:11 am I bought samplers to sample with. Some of my favorite sounds I used were my own samples.
And did the sampler allow recording?

The low level samplings that just stretch one sample all over keyboard does not cut it compared to multilayered and at least one sample each key/pitch. Maybe 5-10 samples each key for various velocities - that is what purchased libraries offer - and that comes closer to the real thing you are sampling.

Percussive sounds I think are usable to do your own, I've been thinking of doing that myself. Doing various sounds to overlay snare or something. That you can do one sample on a single key pretty much.

I downloaded some free brass samples, one sample each pitch and that was a lot of work. Setting the start sample and sustain loop point and other things. That took a day or so. And Vsampler was such a breeze to work with, compared to Kontakt or anything else I saw.

If you try to do multilayered samplings you will have a vast load of samples to sort and decide this was velocity 20-40, and these are probably velocity 80-100 etc.

A free piano library Maestro had 3 samples each key, and those fortissimo samples were way to hard sounding. So 5-6 probably will start to be good enough to replicate a grand piano. Timbre change so much with each raised key action.

Some make a riot over that Wavestate does not allow own samples - but really wonder what they expect, especially for that money. It's not going to be Akai MPC anything, even the simplest versions. And those Akai cost more than Wavestate.

If Korg have an firmware update that allow own samples that would diminish the storage available today for own programs and performances - I would would not do that update. Now the sky is the limit, pretty much, and that is rare for any synth.
I don't care whether the wavestate would allow user samples, but if it had an easy way to add user samples, of generous memory capacity, it would be additional inducement to buy one.

The wavestate looks like a nice synth for a good price but I really would be happier making myself record more music with the tools I already have rather than getting a new box to play with. The large number of control envelopes could be used for the kind of sound design I might do, but strangely the "real nice" synths that have too many arpeggiator and sequencer features irrationally tend to make me less interested in them.

Logically I know I could just ignore those features or in some cases use them as alternative giant multi-stage conventional envelopes, but it ends up with so many product demo videos of the kind of playing I would never use, it is hard to ignore the features and concentrate on the wealth of conventional synth programming tools some of them have if you just ignore all that absurd one-finger-techno-disco-soundtrack bullshit black hole that so many people get sucked into when they try to demo certain otherwise nice synths. :)

Was mainly just responding to the assertion that people didn't buy samplers to sample. Maybe it was rare, but was raising my hand in the minority. I did a lot of multi-sampling. Yes it is labor-intensive depending on the sampler features.

OK, ferinstance when Guild Ashbory rubber string fretless bass first came out I borrowed one and multi-sampled it to digital tape taking care to get the finger-thump, EQ and compression "just right" then multi-sampled it into sampler. Was a favorite bass patch, punchy and solid, used it on many old recordings. Can't find the old tapes any more and the sampler is long-dead. I have a fender guild ashbory now. The reissue is overall a better-quality instrument than the originals. Quality of the originals was quite dodgy but I can't seem to get the same sound out of my otherwise-higher-quality "reissue" ashbory, plus I can't play fretless worth a damn.

Did lots of guitar multisamples. Sure there are a zillion guitar multisamples you can buy, but the ones I made for myself, I could play them better than somebody else's samples. For example if I wanted to have a multi-sample that plays lead "in the middle of the neck" then I would multisample up across the neck the same way a guitarist would fret melodies if he intended to play solos mostly in the middle strings in the middle of the neck. Ditto, if wanting to do a guitar solo high up on the neck on the top three strings, sample the same fingerings that a guitarist would hit to do that kind of lead work.

It sounded lots more authentic and workable than some generic sample that maybe starts on low E and samples up to the high E string staying below the 5th fret, then multisampling the high E string up to the top of the fretboard. Such a multisample might sound OK for certain fingerpicking but won't ever sound like playing at the top of the neck on the low-pitched strings, or the middle of the neck on the middle strings, or whatever.

Also lots of guitar strum and chunk multisamples. An octave of major down strum, octave of major up-strum, octave of minor down strum, octave of minor up-strum. Do rhythms playing octave patters on the keyboard. Or guitar chunk 5ths on the E+A strings and A-D strings, thru an amp with proper EQ and distortion and miking. Two different octaves of down-stroke 5th chunks and two different octaves of up-stroke 5th chunks. Envelopes set so if you just slap one key and release, it is like a staccatto 5th chunk. Or you can play legato rocking between two octaves for sustain-8th note or triplet overlapping chunks, like holding down the strings and just framming on the strings as guitarists are so fond of doing.

I don't much care for software instruments. Quite a few years ago now, after they pulled the plug on GigaSampler and all my last version of software sampledr instruments became history, I briefly looked into SampleTank. Actually SampleTank had in some way bass-ackward but other way nerd-kewl way of defining multisamples. Rather than throwing a lot of programmer time at lots of multi-sample, multi-layer edit screens, so far as I recall they had this funky special naming scheme for WAV files. So if you had a bunch of multi-sample WAVs, you could name them a certain way all in their own folder, with the root note and other information embedded in the file names.

Which was not as "slick" as having a bunch of GUI edit screens to do the same thing, but got the job done and ought to work fine with hardware samplers as well. If a hardware synth could read off SD or USB stick, it could just be set up to recognize certain WAV file naming conventions to tell it the root notes, layers, split points on import. I could live with that.,

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JCJR wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:03 amDid lots of guitar multisamples. Sure there are a zillion guitar multisamples you can buy, but the ones I made for myself, I could play them better than somebody else's samples. For example if I wanted to have a multi-sample that plays lead "in the middle of the neck" then I would multisample up across the neck the same way a guitarist would fret melodies if he intended to play solos mostly in the middle strings in the middle of the neck. Ditto, if wanting to do a guitar solo high up on the neck on the top three strings, sample the same fingerings that a guitarist would hit to do that kind of lead work.
I might be missing something here but why wouldn't you just play the guitar part you wanted? I use sampled guitar because I don't have the first clue how to play an actual guitar. If I could play, then I'd record the actual guitar part, not try and bodgy it up with sampled guitar.
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BONES wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:17 am
JCJR wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:03 amDid lots of guitar multisamples. Sure there are a zillion guitar multisamples you can buy, but the ones I made for myself, I could play them better than somebody else's samples. For example if I wanted to have a multi-sample that plays lead "in the middle of the neck" then I would multisample up across the neck the same way a guitarist would fret melodies if he intended to play solos mostly in the middle strings in the middle of the neck. Ditto, if wanting to do a guitar solo high up on the neck on the top three strings, sample the same fingerings that a guitarist would hit to do that kind of lead work.
I might be missing something here but why wouldn't you just play the guitar part you wanted? I use sampled guitar because I don't have the first clue how to play an actual guitar. If I could play, then I'd record the actual guitar part, not try and bodgy it up with sampled guitar.
Hi Bones. It is because I am a terrible guitarist. No talent at all. Hasn't been convenient lately but years ago I would time-trade or even hire guitarists, sometimes bassists for mission-critical parts. Not only ability, but a good guitarist or bassist knows his job better than I know his job. But me and my musician buddies are retired geezers who live miles apart so it is no longer practical to get together for sessions. Long ago if I had a concrete idea what the guitar might do, would do a rough MIDI example guitar track and ask a guitarist friend to "play something like this except your version would sound good and have good taste." Or if I didn't know what should go in a part, just ask em to think something up, record several takes so I could go over it later picking-and-choosing the good licks.

Recording my own guitar is tedious non-realtime piecework which takes forever. First work out every note in a MIDI track then laboriously duplicate the MIDI track on guitar. With better guitar samples, heck in some cases if they were good enough maybe I could avoid the hassle of duplicating them on guitar. At the very least even if a sample didn't sound good enough for final, better samples would require less imagination when writing the MIDI parts. It can strain the imagination trying to compose while monitoring some cheezy generic synth guitar patch. All my factory synth guitar patches are ultra-cheezy. Can't think of even one that ain't cheezy.

A few months ago tried running some clean strat and clean jazz guitar synth patches thru my little tube guitar amp to see if it would make em sound more realistic. No joy. Sounded awful. I mean, if you plug in a clean strat and turn it up to 10 it sounds OK, but clean strat generic synth patches do not sound OK turned up to 10 on the amp. For whatever reason it doesn't help a cheezy synth guitar patch at all. Dunno why.

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"Recording my own guitar is tedious non-realtime piecework which takes forever." Are you telling me making your own multi-samples is easier? If that's true, then you must be a worse guitarist than I am a pianist!

I don't try to run synth-guitar patches through amps, I tend to use the same sound I'd use if it was a straight synth part and that seems to work OK a lot of the time. No-one is ever going to mistake it for a real guitar but it usually does the job well enough, if you know what I mean.
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BONES wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:49 am "Recording my own guitar is tedious non-realtime piecework which takes forever." Are you telling me making your own multi-samples is easier? If that's true, then you must be a worse guitarist than I am a pianist!
Well I don't play piano so good either. :) Maybe you over-estimate multi-sampling difficulty, especially if a person only pleases himself for specialized musical purpose. Tis not fast but with practice not incredibly slow (depends on sampler features).

Its not that you can save time being sleazy slipshod-- Just that you don't have to pay attention to details that do not matter for the sample's intended purpose. The sample only has to work with yer own playing style to fit a special role. Doesn't have to please numerous disparate sample library paying customers.

Even if it takes most of a day for a no-talent thumbfinger to laboriously record a song's guitar track and also takes most of a day to make the multisample-- That breaks-even if you only use that multisample on one song. However if you end up using that multisample in two or more songs then the multisample would be less labor-intensive if good enough to avoid recording guitar track. If I was ever gonna get any better at playing guitar it would have happened many decades ago. :)

Well one motivation back in the 1980's and 90's when I was sampling a lot-- Until mid-1990's I was running hardware synths SMPTE synced to multitrack tape, mixed real-time to 2 track digital tape. Couldn't fine-edit audio tape tracks but MIDI edit was quite full-featured.

If somebody comes out with an easy affordable hardware multisampler dunno if I'd have sufficient interest in bothering with it nowadays. Possibly too fried crispy. :) But you get sounds as close to custom special for your own use as you can make em, and you get to use sounds that you know for damn sure nobody else has used unless you give away or otherwise publish yer sampling files.

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JCJR wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:45 am
BONES wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:49 am "Recording my own guitar is tedious non-realtime piecework which takes forever." Are you telling me making your own multi-samples is easier? If that's true, then you must be a worse guitarist than I am a pianist!
Well I don't play piano so good either. :) Maybe you over-estimate multi-sampling difficulty, especially if a person only pleases himself for specialized musical purpose. Tis not fast but with practice not incredibly slow (depends on sampler features).

Its not that you can save time being sleazy slipshod-- Just that you don't have to pay attention to details that do not matter for the sample's intended purpose. The sample only has to work with yer own playing style to fit a special role. Doesn't have to please numerous disparate sample library paying customers.
If one is sampling a midi synth, then multi-sampling is really easy these days. SampleRobot for example automates the whole process and can export to lots of formats. Even sampling acoustic instruments is pretty easy now (like a Kalimba etc.)

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The Wavestate uses a Raspberry Pi compute module. I used a compute module devkit to enable ssh root login over USB, got full access to the Linux OS. The inspiration.db database is sqlite3, easy to add and remove sample entries. Main issue is figuring out the PCM file format (around 2.5Gb samples). The compute module has space left for user samples, I upgraded mine to 32Gb (from 8Gb original). Playing the PCM samples through Audacity raw PCM 16bit unsigned you hear the multi samples but distorted. So it is a matter of time until someone figures out the PCM format. Also, filecopy (scp) over USB is very fast, copying all 2GB of samples takes around 2 minutes, so uploading user samples over USB should be smooth. Anyhow, even without user samples, it is a fun synth!

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I think what needs to be cracked is how mapped multisamples are defined. So you get nice sounding at all pitches. And that takes a lot of space. Thinking anything playable here, not just percussive.

There is some SDK of some sort, open source software and patches, not familiar with what it is
https://www.korg.com/us/support/download/product/0/840/

Single sample mapped all over keyboard, and the transpose engine in Wavestate does not do that good a job, IMO. Some of the factory presets in there transpose 24 semitones, and even that sounds horrible - and 2 octaves only. All those artifacts will not please ears or anything I would use in a recording.

I used Vsampler quite a bit long ago, and there were updates with more algorithms that were better but cpu hungry. Not sure how powerful the engine is in a synth like Wavestate.

Some short percussive samples is maybe of use though. But what is missing, there are loads of those already. That type you don't transpose, but single pitch.

When new firmware is released, now 5 months since last, there will probably be some extension with new samples as well, is my assumption. I mean there are still people who cannot get the firmware there is over, trouble with drivers, and are stuck with what was delivered at purchase.

Wavestate is perfect for those long evolving pads that I originally thought to make on DeepMind and the mod matrix. So much easier to do in Wavestate, and can shift between any samples in doing so - so very unique. The demos I heard on DeepMind selfgenerating patches were small variations to the theme.

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Just noticed version 1.04 from Date: 2020.08.20
https://www.korg.com/us/support/downloa ... /840/4519/

Software
System updater for wavestate.

Release notes
- Tempo synchronization has been improved, especially when notes are held for a long time.

- Previously, MIDI Clocks with extremely high jitter could cause synchronization problems with tempo-based Wave Sequences. This has now been fixed.

- If Steps are added to a lane (either by adding Steps or by changing the Wave Sequence or Lane Preset), their parameters are now modulatable immediately, without need to switch to a different Layer and then back again.

- Previously, Note Advance would increment separately for each Unison Voice. It now increments once per note.

- Previously, changing the selections for Layer, Lane, Envelope, LFO, Effect, and Performance Mod Knobs would put the sound into the Edited state (since the selections are saved with the Performance), interfering with Com- pare. Now, these selections do not affect Compare.

- Amp LFO Intensity can now be chosen for modulation by selecting the on-screen parameter and pressing ENTER. (Previously, it could only be chosen by moving the front-panel knob.)

- Previously, rapid Performance changes could cause a crash, especially in conjunction with high-density MIDI CC activity. This has now been fixed.

- Previously, rapidly and repeatedly selecting a Performance, editing, and then selecting a new Performance could eventually cause a crash. This has now been fixed.

- Previously, if a Program was renamed in the Sound Librarian, the new name would appear in selection dialogs, but the old name would be shown elsewhere. This has now been fixed.

- Names of some of the factory sounds have been changed. Some have been shortened so that they fit within 24 characters. “Ski Beatz” has been changed to “Marimba Beats.” These changes have no effect on any user sounds.

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Thanks for all the info, guys! 😀
Much appreciated. For me it's a no brainer. Already have Roland and Yamaha vintage hw.

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BONES wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:00 am
Daags wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:39 amhuh ? ... I don't recall anyone asking for it to be a sampler ? ... seriously, you apologist fanatics really need to brush up on your comprehension before wasting time on replies.
You're so freakin' ignorant you don't even understand what the word "sampler" implies. Nobody bought a sampler to sample, we all bought them to play back content that came with the instrument or was supplied by the manufacturer on floppy disks. As kritikon said, only more politely, what sort of moron would want to use their own amateur samples when there is a plethora of superb, professional content supplied with the synth?
asking for an instrument that uses samples at its base level to allow users to supply their own samples is not - in any way shape or form - asking for it to be a sampler.
No, that is exactly what it's asking.
the friggin Prophet VS allowed users to load their own samples for vector synthesis back in 1986
And look how that ended for Sequential Circuits. Then look at the most successful synth of all time, the mighty KORG M1 - chock full of sampled goodness but not a user slot in sight. So maybe, just maybe, you need to accept that Korg might know just a tiny bit more than you do about what their customers want?
there were no technical reasons not to officially allow it then, and there sure as shit aren't any technical reasons not to allow it now in 2020.
And you know that how, exactly? What if it added $500 to the cost of the instrument, would it be worth it then? You are making assumptions about things you can't possibly have any knowledge of.
the fact is, it was Korg's idea back then to sell expansion cards. and it is easier to sell expansion cards to users craving variety when you simultaneously don't allow them to add their own variety for free.
Did the expansion cards sell? Perhaps Korg saw that there was no interest and so haven't bothered since? And, of course, back then a Wavestation had a tiny wave ROM, just 2MB, so expansion cards made some sense. Wavestate has 1000 times as much memory devoted to content so expansion is clearly far less necessary.
it is a legit shortcoming of the reboot
No, it's just some clueless little man whining about something no-one else is interested in. And if they did include it, then you'd complain that there wasn't enough memory devoted to it or it didn't support the particular file format that you insist on using or that it required to much preparation of the samples to get them in there or any of a dozen other things that wouldn't be exactly what you want.
mentioning this shortcoming/feature request doesn't warrant the 'ugh, you just don't get it bro' in BOLD FONT ALL CAPS etc,
Yes, it does. It shows complete ignorance on the difference between software and hardware.
and the 'korg know people would be too stupid to upload their own samples' argument is more nonsense. see: korg volca sample.
It's not "Korg people", Korg people get it. It's people who haven't the slightest clue what they are talking about Korg needs to consider. you know, the kind of person they have in mind when they are idiot-proofing a product.

u w0t m8 ?

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