Aux Send/Return: still has latency causing phasing

[vitocorleone123]

This by now is a "classic" issue, in that it's been around a long time - years and years - and hasn't yet been addressed. I'm guessing most people don't run into it still, because most Waveform users use plugins and also slap an effect onto each track/bus track and do a wet/dry mix that way. But there is another way, and another set of users....

I ran into this issue again after buying a hardware effect. The Insert plugin works great. The Aux Send/Receive? Still causes phasing, using hardware or software. Given that I have 2 hardware synths, an iOS device, and now an effect, all connected to my Clarett 4pre, I'm starting to wonder about how well other DAWs handle latency with external gear (or don't). I doubt I'll switch, because I just "click" with Tracktion and always have, but I think it's time for doing demos, as I haven't since getting hardware over the last 1.5 years.

EDIT: Ableton also phases a bit, but not as much. Also, it's super simple to sync to MIDI clock from my OB-6 (more stable than out from the DAW), whereas Tracktion cannot. Ableton is so ugly! And harder to use. I think Cubase is next to try. Ableton also has Link, of course, and setting the tempo on my iPhone in AUM with Link enabled seems even more steady than MIDI as the clock source.

[fde101]

Latency is an unknown factor when dealing with external hardware so there is no way for the DAW to automatically fully compensate for latency outside of the software stack. At best a control could be provided to let the user manually specify the amount of latency that would need to be compensated for.

[vitocorleone123]

Very true. Waveform is just below average at it, and requires frequent manual intervention.

Honestly I think the hardware effect isn’t designed to be used as a send, which is ok. It’s more an experiment pushing the MIDI and sync boundaries. Waveform is great for ITB work, but it’s fraying at the edges when it comes to external gear. I don’t understand how they’ve avoided sync to MIDI clock for the 15+ years the DAW has been around.

Supporting Link would be phenomenal, as well. It’s seeming so much better than MIDI clock - rock solid stable.

[vitocorleone123]

@dRowAudio

Does MIDI sync even work? Selecting the MIDI timecode device to something sending out MIDI clock doesn't do anything, either does selecting machine control, no matter if MTC is enabled or not in the master area.

I'd really love to see more MIDI functionality, like responding to Clock, in Waveform. This is definitely an area where the competitors make it fast and relatively easy to do.

Adding Ableton Link would, as I've said years ago now in this forum, be a fantastic feature to add. There's even more iOS musicians now than then, not to mention it's a more solid way than MIDI clock for keeping things tightly in sync.

[AGreen]

I believe they're working on plugin delay compensation at the moment but don't know what the timescale for implementation is.

[astey]

[...]
I really need to focus on fixing PDC though as this is the most popular complaint we get and it's a huge amount of work (but will be worth it in the long run).

Here is a quote on this topic

[fde101]

Just to make sure people realize this... PDC = Plugin Delay Compensation and is designed to compensate for latency introduced by *software* plugins.

It cannot compensate for latency introduced by *hardware* which the OP indicated is in play for his situation.

[vitocorleone123]

Just to make sure people realize this... PDC = Plugin Delay Compensation and is designed to compensate for latency introduced by *software* plugins.

It cannot compensate for latency introduced by *hardware* which the OP indicated is in play for his situation.

Correct! Better software PDC is always welcomed, of course!

I'll be trying out Ableton for a couple months in the mean time (something I thought I'd never say since I've used Tracktion since v2 or v3, and would prefer to avoid). Decided against bothering with Cubase as I don't want another dongle (iLok already). Studio One will eventually have a demo again, but Link seems to really help with timing and I can use my iPhone as an external clock if needed, so....

[astey]

Just to make sure people realize this... PDC = Plugin Delay Compensation and is designed to compensate for latency introduced by *software* plugins.

It cannot compensate for latency introduced by *hardware* which the OP indicated is in play for his situation.

Correct! Better software PDC is always welcomed, of course!

I'll be trying out Ableton for a couple months in the mean time (something I thought I'd never say since I've used Tracktion since v2 or v3, and would prefer to avoid). Decided against bothering with Cubase as I don't want another dongle (iLok already). Studio One will eventually have a demo again, but Link seems to really help with timing and I can use my iPhone as an external clock if needed, so....

Bitwig supports link too and has excellent pdc and timing modules. According to many users, Abletons pdc is flawed. You could give Bw a try as well.
External hardware integration isn’t a simple task.

Here is an old video demonstrating the difference. Don't know if Ableton catched up.

[vitocorleone123]

I'm in no rush to change DAWs - I truly love Tracktion/Waveform, and always have. Overall. Except the versions in the past that crashed too often for my comfort. The standout issues to me just stand out further because of that. Other DAWs, like Ableton, have their own issues (Ableton apparently has PDC issues of its own). I can understand the delay compensation being a real bear to work on and solve, with very complex math. However, it's also sort of important, especially since we're in a hardware renaissance, so lots more people have lots more devices.

Likewise with the, hopefully easier, MIDI clock (and/or Link) sync. This one seems like a real miss. Surely it's been a conscious choice, or it would've been implemented over the last 15 years or whatever. But, again, lots more hardware out there now - even if it's just people with iPhones and iPads (and now Cubasis is on Android, so....) - so I strongly believe it's time to reconsider enabling Waveform to sync both ways with external hardware. And MIDI 2.0 is coming up, so there'll be even greater expectations building.

And, again, MTC sync doesn't even seem to work anymore in Waveform 11 (it has in past versions).

[HansP]

Just to make sure people realize this... PDC = Plugin Delay Compensation and is designed to compensate for latency introduced by *software* plugins.

It cannot compensate for latency introduced by *hardware* which the OP indicated is in play for his situation.

This need not be the case, and also we have plugins in the wild, that sound great but do not correctly report.

Once I had made a suggestion to introduce the notion of a "meta-plugin" (which send and return features actually are, and racks as well), i.e. a special type that has one property: positive or negative delay, emulated effectively, and by design unreported (else we become circular) but value is being set by the graph engine and known.
The negative delay just means that the resolving engine of the mix net graph has to create metaplugins with certain positive delay values somewhere else (and execute them with buffers, and not just shift the input clips). By iteration the values may add up, until everything has been resolved.
Then the values with remaining meta-plugins get compiled into the runtime execution of the mix.

Phase 1 could add negative delay metas into the graph, according to detected requirements, until full compensation has been achieved (in the model). Phase 2 could add up everything for the maximum chain value, by looking through all chains and channels. This would also be the low boundary to our surface latency, when we press the play button - caveat. Phase 3 could convert the negative values, by eating them up with positive values in other branches. We would have to track how much of the positive value has been consumed already, during the execution loop of this process. If we don't end up with a zero, plus a bunch of emulated delays, then something went wrong, and a warning is issued.

This will be required also for complex bus structures, that became cross-wired according to the concept by the mix engineer. (Think of multiple side-chaining.)

A hardware effect just needs a companion meta-plugin, where the engineer enters the known delay time of the chain. It will be executed as a negative. To measure that value is a different story, but must be a given.

Not sure, if the idea is useful, or if the Tracktion lab has a much better concept to do this.
Just saying, of course, software can compensate for hardware chains in mixing.
If some particular mix bus structure is too circular and contradicting, then the offending wires and metaplugins can be redlined.

[vitocorleone123]

I decided I'll try to track down and purchase a device that converts audio to MIDI in the next month if I can, and see if that'll solve the issue without having to switch to a new DAW. Not as flexible, since it's more plugin management overhead, but also decidedly more accurate timing than Ableton or any other DAW if it works. Also less expensive than buying Ableton Suite!

And, when I get down to it, I really would rather continue using Waveform, despite any grumblings I do now and then. It's always been out of love for the product.

[FigBug]

Dave has been working on this non stop for the last few months. Better delay compensation for sends, racks, etc should be hitting beta in the next week or so.

[astey]

Dave has been working on this non stop for the last few months. Better delay compensation for sends, racks, etc should be hitting beta in the next week or so.

Awesome!

[vitocorleone123]

Dave has been working on this non stop for the last few months. Better delay compensation for sends, racks, etc should be hitting beta in the next week or so.

FANTASTIC
I always download the betas with all the reporting on.
Thanks, Figbug!