For those not familiar:
I've decided to take this on not that I've picked up a few basics on physical modeling in MSF. I'm not particularly interested in the rattle as it's a separate sound, but would like to create a clean usable version that includes:
1) Vibrating string
2) "Wah" effect of the resonating gourd opening/closing
3) Pitch change of the rock against the string
Just looking for a few pointers from anyone with more experience in physical modeling. My first inclination is a simple blip of a sine or noise sweep into a resonator into a modal filter or whatever it's called where you can use a sample of the actual instrument to copy the harmonics.
Not even sure if that much is optimal, but it gets a bit trickier from there. The opening and closing of the gourd against the chest is separate from the resonating string, so not sure if that needs to be modeled and filtered as a separate entity.
As for the pitch change, if it were a simple pitch shift, I would think that a simple legato slide time would suffice and be easier to probram for various pitches than zooming in on pitchbends. It's not quite that, though. It doesn't really slide from one pitch to another. It's a more sudden shift as the rock is placed against the string, but also a shift in tonality. I'm thinking maybe use samples of with and without the rock in place to create two different harmonic signatures, then morph between them or something to that effect. The attack is only on the initial hit, though. The "pitch bend" doesn't necessarily have a new attack.
Just a few of my noob musings. I have a little time before I need to dig into this, so thought I'd open it up for any suggestions.
Physical modeling of a berimbau
-
- KVRAF
- 2000 posts since 5 Jan, 2003 from Brookings, OR
I hope Chandler weighs in on this, as he's The Guy for Melda modeling, AFAI'mConcerned, and I'd love to hear his take on this.
I'm no expert, just a long-time fan of, and collector of, modeling synths, and I'd say this is a pretty tall order, because it's not just a string model we're looking at here. It's also models of other objects interacting with that initial model, the striking stick and the damping, obstructing, almost slide-like stone. There's only one modeling device I know of that offers any sort of deep options for different ways to interact with a basic model, and I've yet to hear of any devices or features in the Melda/MSF collection that attempt to provide anything on these lines. I'm thinking of Sculpture, part of the Logic factory synth collection, which provides these:
The gourd thing could no doubt be handled with filters alone, but even with Sculpture-like tools (which doesn't offer a berimbau, sadly, nor could it, that I can see), the other question here is how to assemble a collection of modeled articulations in your MSF Instrument to switch between in real-time, to allow some simulation of a berimbau performance. The only modeling devices that I know of that do try to model a range of performance parameters for specific instruments are basically ones dedicated to those specific target instruments, such as the Pianoteq keys, and the SWAM strings, etc. I don't know of any generic modeling tools, like even the quite targeted AAS stuff such as Chromophone or String Studio, or the more open-ended ones like Kaivo, or Modelonia, or Falcon that even go there. And MSF is a LONG way from offering anything like this.
The best I can offer in a positive way would be to give up on getting all these sounds going on in a single instrument, but to assemble a few different ones for different aspects of the berimbau's tonal universe, and layering them up (maybe eventually in real-time, but not initially) to get the full flavor.
I certainly hope I'm exposing more ignorance here about the possibilities than realities about the limitations…Chandler, you around?
I'm no expert, just a long-time fan of, and collector of, modeling synths, and I'd say this is a pretty tall order, because it's not just a string model we're looking at here. It's also models of other objects interacting with that initial model, the striking stick and the damping, obstructing, almost slide-like stone. There's only one modeling device I know of that offers any sort of deep options for different ways to interact with a basic model, and I've yet to hear of any devices or features in the Melda/MSF collection that attempt to provide anything on these lines. I'm thinking of Sculpture, part of the Logic factory synth collection, which provides these:
The gourd thing could no doubt be handled with filters alone, but even with Sculpture-like tools (which doesn't offer a berimbau, sadly, nor could it, that I can see), the other question here is how to assemble a collection of modeled articulations in your MSF Instrument to switch between in real-time, to allow some simulation of a berimbau performance. The only modeling devices that I know of that do try to model a range of performance parameters for specific instruments are basically ones dedicated to those specific target instruments, such as the Pianoteq keys, and the SWAM strings, etc. I don't know of any generic modeling tools, like even the quite targeted AAS stuff such as Chromophone or String Studio, or the more open-ended ones like Kaivo, or Modelonia, or Falcon that even go there. And MSF is a LONG way from offering anything like this.
The best I can offer in a positive way would be to give up on getting all these sounds going on in a single instrument, but to assemble a few different ones for different aspects of the berimbau's tonal universe, and layering them up (maybe eventually in real-time, but not initially) to get the full flavor.
I certainly hope I'm exposing more ignorance here about the possibilities than realities about the limitations…Chandler, you around?
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 452 posts since 21 Jul, 2018
Never would have occurred to me to look in there for it. Spent a weekend with it years ago, was sorely disappointed, and moved on. Don't remember seeing a berimbau, but I think I was looking to do something completely different like TSOP strings at the time.David wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:02 am String Studio DOES offer a berimbau, in the Masala collection, btw. With only the typical editing tools that all the presets share.
Still ever on the lookout for disco strings and JB style horns, btw. Tons of sample libraries, but I always end up with the same frustrations with sloppy recording too few velocity layers, etc causing all kinds of weird jumps that need to constantly be edited. For the most part, I just want clean horn stabs and fast string runs. Clean, simple, and not too noisy when stacked. I should probably take another look at modeling options for those too.
Frankly, with something like 8TB of sample libraries (no loops. That's all individual hits and notes), I'd gladly trade it all for one good clean usable model in each category.
-
- KVRian
- 1285 posts since 3 Jan, 2020
I would try using a modal filter with two different harmonic structures. One for the open and one with the closed sound. Then you can modulate between the two of them for the 'wah' effect. You'll probably also need to adjust the resonance parameters at the same time.
The rest should work like any other stringed instrument.
The rest should work like any other stringed instrument.
-
- KVRAF
- 2000 posts since 5 Jan, 2003 from Brookings, OR
Here's the String Studio2 Berimbau (I don't have SS3), with a few knobs being twiddled by hand to first try to get the stone-applied sounds, then to get the filtering:
https://soundcloud.com/david-coffin/aas ... n-berimbau
Masala is a fairly recent add-on library for SStudio, quite a good one IMO:
https://www.applied-acoustics.com/masala/
The knobs I twisted in order from left to right. The two in the middle I used less than the two on each end.
https://soundcloud.com/david-coffin/aas ... n-berimbau
Masala is a fairly recent add-on library for SStudio, quite a good one IMO:
https://www.applied-acoustics.com/masala/
The knobs I twisted in order from left to right. The two in the middle I used less than the two on each end.
-
Chandlerhimself Chandlerhimself https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=318799
- KVRAF
- 1822 posts since 19 Dec, 2013 from Japan
I imagine it can be made with the resonator, a combfilter, pitch modulation and a low pass filter. I haven't tried it yet, but it should be possible.
My Youtube page https://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarChandler
-
- KVRAF
- 2000 posts since 5 Jan, 2003 from Brookings, OR
Would love to see your take on this challenge, Chandler! Video! Video! Video!Chandlerhimself wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:23 pm I imagine it can be made with the resonator, a combfilter, pitch modulation and a low pass filter. I haven't tried it yet, but it should be possible.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 452 posts since 21 Jul, 2018
I guess I'd have to buy it to check it out. A few of the sounds in Masala (or maybe Masala 2, I forget which are in each) are impressive, but the berimbau in particular sounds dull and lifeless. I've played a few from handmade ones to fiberglass, etc, and they're very bright, lively, and somewhat chaotic beasts. because you're not grabbing, or plucking the string directly, the control is a bit sloppier, and it doesn't stop neatly vibrating when you do something different. For instance, pressing the stone against the string isn't the tidy affair of, say, a string being pressed to a precisely machined fret. It's buzzy, sharp, and a bit random. There's a reason you don't hear these things mixed into smooth jazz.David wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:37 pm Here's the String Studio2 Berimbau (I don't have SS3), with a few knobs being twiddled by hand to first try to get the stone-applied sounds, then to get the filtering...
Last edited by Annabanna on Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 452 posts since 21 Jul, 2018
Amen to that. Forgot to mention in another thread before, Chandler, if you're reading this:David wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:42 pm
Would love to see your take on this challenge, Chandler! Video! Video! Video!
It would be helpful if you linked in video description to the patch being demonstrated. Perhaps you do in some other format, and just not where I'm seeing the video, but as an example, I went through your timpani tut the other day, and for some reason, mine ended up sounding very different. It was very time consuming going back through the video multiple times to try to figure out why. I finally ran out of time and gave up for the time being. It's possible it's just the timbre of the sample used... though I tried at least a few different ones.
Anyway, generally speaking, having access to the tut patch is often a great troubleshooting tool.
-
Chandlerhimself Chandlerhimself https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=318799
- KVRAF
- 1822 posts since 19 Dec, 2013 from Japan
I'll try to do a video on this later this week. I don't know if I'll be able to make an exact copy, but hopefully I'll be able to get close.
As for links to the patch, I haven't finished the device yet, but it should be included in MSF when it is done. The sample you use for the Timpani sound does matter, so choosing the right one or manually editing the partials helps.
As for links to the patch, I haven't finished the device yet, but it should be included in MSF when it is done. The sample you use for the Timpani sound does matter, so choosing the right one or manually editing the partials helps.
My Youtube page https://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarChandler
-
- KVRAF
- 2000 posts since 5 Jan, 2003 from Brookings, OR
Cool, very interested to see what you come up with and what choices you make, thanks!Chandlerhimself wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:41 am I'll try to do a video on this later this week. I don't know if I'll be able to make an exact copy, but hopefully I'll be able to get close.
…
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 452 posts since 21 Jul, 2018
Ditto. Outside of fiddling with Chromophone, I've done very little physical modeling, and haven't had much luck yet getting a coherent sound. After spending most of a day trying to dial in all sorts of details with available Kontakt libraries, I'm convinced I need to lean in hard to physical modeling... for this, timpanis, toms, and a variety of other tuned percussion I'm constantly in need of.
It's amazing to me, for instance, how difficult it is to just get a properly tuned tom groove going on with vsti's. The tuning on most available kits is semi-random, and doesn't match up from kit to kit or piece to piece even within a given plug like Addictive Drums or Superior Drummer. If you want to then just play something that matches the song, even if the toms are tuned to something, they're not tuned to the notes that trigger them.
As a result, I've ended up adding additional instruments to the kit, rewiring the trigger notes, etc. It's amazing to me what an afterthought this is for all those products considering how amazingly difficult and time consuming it is to run toms through tuners, visual analysis to try to properly identify the fundamental, then the number of steps involved to get anything remotely resembling a note per note mapping on a keyboard.
Even if you do, there is a sharp jump between the available velocity samples, and between those produced by different sized drums in the same set.
Really, all I want. All I EVER want on EVERY project is the same simple thing of a properly tuned and keyboard mapped set that smoothly transitions along the keyboard, and along the velocities. It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that I need to go the physical modeling route.
The timpani vid was an eye opener for me. If I can get that working, I've already got 2 songs finished but unreleased that I can go back and replace the timpanis in. Workable toms would be a game changer for me. I've gotten a variety of 80's sounding synth toms, but nothing like what I'm looking for to give a modern, updated sound to something like Bow Wow Wow (I want Candy). Even with the painfully over-engineered sound and the horrific tone of those Staccato horn toms, there's something undeniable about it that works with lots of toms ringing out on top of each other due to the lack of resonance.
I'd think it would be easy, but I've had very limited luck so far just getting a basic North / Staccato type tom sound (or just a regular tom sound with something like hydraulics on top, and no resonant head)... and a berimbau would seem to be much trickier, so trying to learn to walk at the moment before I can run.
Perhaps MODO drum has some better tom modeling options and a simpler way to map. I'm hardware restricted from using it, unfortunately. At the moment, I just happen to be working on a tune with berimbau, but that's a much less frequent event.
It's amazing to me, for instance, how difficult it is to just get a properly tuned tom groove going on with vsti's. The tuning on most available kits is semi-random, and doesn't match up from kit to kit or piece to piece even within a given plug like Addictive Drums or Superior Drummer. If you want to then just play something that matches the song, even if the toms are tuned to something, they're not tuned to the notes that trigger them.
As a result, I've ended up adding additional instruments to the kit, rewiring the trigger notes, etc. It's amazing to me what an afterthought this is for all those products considering how amazingly difficult and time consuming it is to run toms through tuners, visual analysis to try to properly identify the fundamental, then the number of steps involved to get anything remotely resembling a note per note mapping on a keyboard.
Even if you do, there is a sharp jump between the available velocity samples, and between those produced by different sized drums in the same set.
Really, all I want. All I EVER want on EVERY project is the same simple thing of a properly tuned and keyboard mapped set that smoothly transitions along the keyboard, and along the velocities. It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that I need to go the physical modeling route.
The timpani vid was an eye opener for me. If I can get that working, I've already got 2 songs finished but unreleased that I can go back and replace the timpanis in. Workable toms would be a game changer for me. I've gotten a variety of 80's sounding synth toms, but nothing like what I'm looking for to give a modern, updated sound to something like Bow Wow Wow (I want Candy). Even with the painfully over-engineered sound and the horrific tone of those Staccato horn toms, there's something undeniable about it that works with lots of toms ringing out on top of each other due to the lack of resonance.
I'd think it would be easy, but I've had very limited luck so far just getting a basic North / Staccato type tom sound (or just a regular tom sound with something like hydraulics on top, and no resonant head)... and a berimbau would seem to be much trickier, so trying to learn to walk at the moment before I can run.
Perhaps MODO drum has some better tom modeling options and a simpler way to map. I'm hardware restricted from using it, unfortunately. At the moment, I just happen to be working on a tune with berimbau, but that's a much less frequent event.