Exponential Audio Verbs: PhoenixVerb, Nimbus, R4. Your Thoughts?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
User avatar
Tronam
KVRAF
1705 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Post Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:15 pm

mholloway wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:29 pm
Tronam wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:21 am
I even like the 224 better than the 480, which I don’t fully understand because I thought it was just an expanded version of the older model. I’m no expert at programming reverbs though, so it may just come down to my inability to dial in the correct settings. Maybe my personal taste sucks. 😂
Nah, your taste doesn't suck. There is in fact a name for this condition: it's called Vangelitis. Once you've seen+heard Blade Runner, from that point forward all reverb sounds inferior to the Lexicon 224.

I suffer from this as well, but I refuse to buy into UAD, let alone get the actual hardware.

I'm also, as already noted in this thread, very much on Team Exponential, and use Nimbus and R4 as my go-to reverbs.

But, no, they don't do that 224 Vangelis / Blade Runner thing -- but I found a solution. I use Past to the Future's (an Impulse Response shop) 224 collection. He has a couple different ones, including one literally named 'Blade Runner...' which focuses on IRs with very, very long tails from the 224. There's also a more 'standard' 224 pack.

I use those with Ableton's Convolution Reverb (max for live) when I need that 224 magic. Otherwise, I'm Exponential all the way. I see Nimbus / R4 as 'mixing' verbs, to create space and spatial cohesion. The 224 is, for me anyway, very much an 'effect' verb -- and again, of course, the sound of just about every single sound in Blade Runner comes to mind again :) (But, finally, I don't want to short-change R4: it can do some very nice lexicon 'effect' sounds as well).
I laughed heartily. :lol: I'm definitely a big fan of EA. I use PhoenixVerb and Nimbus all the time. R2 less so, but I really like its large halls and there are some clever 'rear' presets I've found quite useful. I didn't realize Vangelis used the 224, but I guess it makes sense considering the time period. I'm curious now how he programmed those extremely long tails. I'll have to experiment.

Winstontaneous
KVRAF
1945 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Post Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:36 pm

Here's an interesting blog post from Sean Costello (Valhalla DSP) about Vangelis, Lexicon 224 and the role of noise/distortion in reverb.

I haven't used a 224-style/inspired plugin other than NI RC24 and Relab Sonsig, but I really appreciate the goopy magic. I know the 224 is a key ingredient in the Eno/Lanois "shimmer" among other iconic sounds.

Kalamata Kid
KVRAF
4648 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA

Post Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:45 pm

Are PhoenixVerb, Nimbus and/or R4 multi-touch capable?

jens
KVRAF
20272 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:52 pm

Phoenix is, so I assume the newer ones are too...

Kalamata Kid
KVRAF
4648 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA

Post Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

^^^
Thanks.
I am considering getting R4 and would likely get if it is Multi-touch :love: capable.
Same developer so likely MT.

vitocorleone123
KVRian
780 posts since 30 Jun, 2014 from Pacific NW

Post Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:56 pm

mholloway wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:29 pm
Tronam wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:21 am
I even like the 224 better than the 480, which I don’t fully understand because I thought it was just an expanded version of the older model. I’m no expert at programming reverbs though, so it may just come down to my inability to dial in the correct settings. Maybe my personal taste sucks. 😂
Nah, your taste doesn't suck. There is in fact a name for this condition: it's called Vangelitis. Once you've seen+heard Blade Runner, from that point forward all reverb sounds inferior to the Lexicon 224.

I suffer from this as well, but I refuse to buy into UAD, let alone get the actual hardware.

I'm also, as already noted in this thread, very much on Team Exponential, and use Nimbus and R4 as my go-to reverbs.

But, no, they don't do that 224 Vangelis / Blade Runner thing -- but I found a solution. I use Past to the Future's (an Impulse Response shop) 224 collection. He has a couple different ones, including one literally named 'Blade Runner...' which focuses on IRs with very, very long tails from the 224. There's also a more 'standard' 224 pack.

I use those with Ableton's Convolution Reverb (max for live) when I need that 224 magic. Otherwise, I'm Exponential all the way. I see Nimbus / R4 as 'mixing' verbs, to create space and spatial cohesion. The 224 is, for me anyway, very much an 'effect' verb -- and again, of course, the sound of just about every single sound in Blade Runner comes to mind again :) (But, finally, I don't want to short-change R4: it can do some very nice lexicon 'effect' sounds as well).
Past to Future question: are they in stereo? I've not used IR files before for reverb, so I picked up Convology XT and then the free pack from Past to Future to give it a try, but all of them sound mono. I suppose it could be that the hardware itself is mono, and I'm just displaying plain old ignorance :party:

Are the paid files also in stereo? I'd definitely consider the Lexicon bundle to get the 224 vibe, if so. Thanks!

User avatar
Tronam
KVRAF
1705 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Post Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:22 am

vitocorleone123 wrote: Past to Future question: are they in stereo? I've not used IR files before for reverb, so I picked up Convology XT and then the free pack from Past to Future to give it a try, but all of them sound mono. I suppose it could be that the hardware itself is mono, and I'm just displaying plain old ignorance :party:

Are the paid files also in stereo? I'd definitely consider the Lexicon bundle to get the 224 vibe, if so. Thanks!
The 224 is a true stereo reverb (stereo-in/stereo-out), so I’d hope those impulse responses are as well. I haven’t used Convology, but maybe the mono version of the plug-in was loaded?

jens
KVRAF
20272 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:32 pm

Kalamata Kid wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm
^^^
Thanks.
I am considering getting R4 and would likely get if it is Multi-touch :love: capable.
Same developer so likely MT.
Yes, same developer and a later product. It's highly unlikely that this feature was removed fropm his GUI-framework at some point after coding Phoenix - that doesn't make any sense. But I never tried R4, so I can't vouch for it.

Tendou
KVRist
250 posts since 10 Mar, 2020

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:55 am

How does R4 compare to Lexicon PCM (curious bc its the same coder) and Seventh Heaven Pro?

User avatar
Tronam
KVRAF
1705 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:24 am

Tendou wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:55 am
How does R4 compare to Lexicon PCM (curious bc its the same coder) and Seventh Heaven Pro?
Seventh Heaven is a hybrid IR recreation of the Bricasti M7, which I’d consider best suited for realistic spaces more along the lines of reverb systems like the TC 6000. I’m pretty sure the Lexicon PCM bundle is based on their late nineties PCM 90 hardware and maybe they’re by the same coder, but I don’t know how much crossover there is. In the PCM bundle it seems like the Random Hall algorithm is what people talk about most and I haven’t had much success programming the R2 to simulate that type of classic Lexicon sound, but maybe R4 can get closer. Valhalla’s VintageVerb is worthy of consideration too.

VitaminD
Pick Me Pick me!
8899 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from a state of confusion

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:32 am

Tronam wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:58 pm
The R4 crossgrade is tempting, but if it's anything like R2 I'm not sure how much I'd use it. PV/Nimbus are among my favorites for realistic spaces, but I much prefer other algorithmic reverbs over R2 for the synthetic "swirly" Lexicon thing.
I'm in a similar place. R4 does sound very pleasant but, outside of the Gate, I don't hear significant difference for my application from ValhallaVintageVerb. Maybe the Freeze is enough too.. hmmm..

But the Valhalla reverb is much easier to setup (due to the limited settings to set haha) as well as already in my workflow. So now I'm wondering if I really want to introduce yet another plugin into my setup. Also use the Blackhole reverb for really big stuff. And have the IKM reverbs for lighter/more stuble applications.

It's easy to accumulate a lot of effects which can make it difficult to keep track of them (if you're in the situation of wanting to reload old tracks indefinitely for years/decades to come).

martinjuenke
KVRAF
4369 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:41 am

Don‘t wanna trigger a sh*t storm but Valhalla Vintage Verb is imo too noisy and dirty.

VitaminD
Pick Me Pick me!
8899 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from a state of confusion

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:45 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:41 am
Don‘t wanna trigger a sh*t storm but Valhalla Vintage Verb is imo too noisy and dirty.
For you.

But is your opinion based off of using it on the clean mode (silver screen)?

martinjuenke
KVRAF
4369 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:47 am

VitaminD wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:45 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:41 am
Don‘t wanna trigger a sh*t storm but Valhalla Vintage Verb is imo too noisy and dirty.
For you.

But is your opinion based off of using it on the clean mode (silver screen)?
I bought it twice and sold it twice.
The second time after comparing with R4.

VitaminD
Pick Me Pick me!
8899 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from a state of confusion

Post Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:48 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:47 am
VitaminD wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:45 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:41 am
Don‘t wanna trigger a sh*t storm but Valhalla Vintage Verb is imo too noisy and dirty.
For you.

But is your opinion based off of using it on the clean mode (silver screen)?
I bought it twice and sold it twice.
The second time after comparing with R4.
That doesn't answer the question. But clearly it wasn't for you.

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