Scrambler - dx pretty high noise artifacts

[gentleclockdivider]

When using the scrambler effect on a sine wave, one harmonic spectroblend ( subtle effect for skewing , not turning into full self feedback, noise ) and the second effect is the dx there is a fair amount of noise when modulating the scrambler effect .
I am aware that the scrambler is self phase mod.feedback and can turn into noise ,but I use it verry subtle .
The problem is still there when the dx effect is replaced with a dedicated fmo osc, so the problem has to be the scramble ,self feedback effect ( yepnit is ) .
When using an FMO oscilator on itself , modulating self feedback slighty , we get the exact same effect but without the artifacts

Here'the patch

[gentleclockdivider]

The trajector effect is even worse ..phew
I just remember posting this a few years back

[noiseresearch]

/* whitenoise */

[Urs]

The noise aspect of Scrambler is one of my favourite parts about Zebra's oscillators. I'll make sure it'll stay similar in Z3.

[EvilDragon]

Burrnnnnnnn

[gentleclockdivider]

The noise aspect of Scrambler is one of my favourite parts about Zebra's oscillators. I'll make sure it'll stay similar in Z3.

This is like the comment from someone who can't cope with criticism , it's not the kind of noise we get form self feedbacking a sine , these are unpleasant artifacts , and I am just slightly skewing the sine
Maybe you could give us an explanation as to why it happens ( if you still remember )

[gentleclockdivider]

I saw a couple of threads about oscillatos / waveforms from you. May I ask what your aim is? What you try to find out? No offense from my side I'm enjoying this kind of topic and really just interested in your motivation.

The scrambler effect is like self feedbacking a sine in fm synthesis , when we follow this effect with a dx parameter . we get a Self feedback sine (modulator ) into a carrier .
The dx fx parameter in zebra is essentially a modulator /carrier combo ratio 1:1 ( no matter the tuning of the oscillator itself , )
When the modulator is slightly going from saw to sine with the scramble effect ( feedback on a real dx ) into a carrier we are basically using two operators.
All of this is done with just 1 zebra osc , and this is mighty powerfull
This would be the equivalent in a standard yamaha dx synth

I am just reporting what are to me some anomalies in the sound , slightly modulatng a self feedbacking operator does not introduce these artifacts ( except when overloading it ---you'll get noise ) .
I am well aware that certain corners have to be cut in zebra , the resolution parameter etcc..that's why I expect a (professional ) explanation from Urs , boy was I wrong

[EvilDragon]

It's not an anomaly if it was intended (which seems like it is the case from how Urs commented).

It might have something to do with the fact that oscillators in Zebra are processed as grains.

[gentleclockdivider]

I don’t buy ‘ this is intended’comment ... just download the patch .
It’s the exact same lofi modulation sound as in the trajector effect .
Just to make it perfectly clear , I am not talking about the effect when the sine goes to saw into full blown noise , but just a verry subtle modulation , scramble effect to zero , modulation amount to 12( lfo )

viewtopic.php?t=434998

[EvilDragon]

You don't need to "buy it", but it's a fact of how things are in Zebra (which Urs also told you as much in the last post of that linked thread).

[gentleclockdivider]

You consider these artifacts to be an added feature ?
https://app.box.com/s/atw448i127s4r2e1t892mughdt4jxxr6

[Urs]

It is difficult to explain, but let me try.

You can get similar results in Hive using .uhm when you fill 256 wavetables with different random samples. As long as you don't sweep the wavetable, everything sounds like some bright waveform and each waveform sounds rather similar. But once you sweep through wavetables, it sounds a bit like noise. The faster you sweep the more closely the sound resembles noise.

In Zebra, put simple, the noise you get from a DX-7 feedback is rendered into a wavetable. The noise from FM feedback is extreme aliasing. Imagine a DX-7 had more complex waveforms, the aliasing and thus the noise could be crazy. Imagine the DX-7 had a finely grained feedback parameter, each slight change of setting would create a vastly different set of aliasing - thus noisy - frequencies. First noise would be low, but with each increase of feedback the noise would increase as well, each time with a completely different noise spectrum.

What you hear in Zebra is thus "aliasing from FM feedback rendered into wavetables". Because it's in a wavetable, it's like a wavetable filled with noise. A wavetable filled with noise does not per se alias, but it's got a chaotic spectrum. It's aliasing free and perfectly harmonic as long as you don't change the effect depth. However, blending from one wavetable with chaotic spectrum to another again sounds *like* noise - even if the oscillator is aliasing free. Much like the example in Hive.

Therefore, it's by principle. A feature, not a bug. I'm sorry if you find it offensive that I like the effect, but I can't efficiently work around physics in this instance.

- U

[Urs]

(If I sometimes come across pissy with issues like this, it's probably because each of these elaborate answers cost me about an hour to write down. I'm slow typer and explainer. I feel that, after 15 years of happy uses of Scrambler, I could spend my time better than arguing about its usefulness or purposes, particularly when my mind is set somewhere else)

[The Nerdy Music Guy]

The noisiness of the scrambler effect is one of my favorite and most used things in Zebra. It's a great way to get a really chaotic and complex spectrum, that can then be tamed by Zebra's variety of other available tools (or not).
Don't want that? There are plenty of other OscFX that are more tame.

[gentleclockdivider]

The explanation is much appreciated .
Thanks
To be 100% sure , we’re talking about the artifacts that occur. when verry gently modulating the scrambler ( 10—15 percent ) on a pure sine wave and not the typical feedback noise that occurs when using high amounts of scrambler effect.