Why did you leave Studio One?

[dellboy]

If you don't want to be pirated, protection is not the best solution, it's a solution. Offer other ways to buy your software. For example rent-to-own. That's the best anti-piracy policy, from my point of view and I'm sure there can be other ways to convince people buying your software is a good thing for them too.

How is "rent to own" better ?

You will own it one day after paying over time for it. And likely it will cost more. And it will still need some sort of copy protection. Am I missing something here ?

As far as software i-lok goes, I agree, its a pain, which is why I eventually coughed up and bought a hardware i-lok and put all the licenses on that. Not had any problems since then.

[Trancit]

Real drums don't have any latency at all, except for the speed of sound. Same for a real guitar amp or a piano. Having the lowest latency you can get is never irrelevant to a live performance, because it affects how you play.

And this is latency...

I.e. the drum parts are between 50cm up to 1 m away from your ears...
This means because of the speed of sound that you´ve got latencies from 1.5 to 3 ms between hitting the i.e. snare or kick until it is physical possible for the sound to reach your ear...

An acoustic guitar is at least 30-40 cm away from your ears so it takes about 1.2 ms till you are able to hear what you do...
The hammers of the piano are about 1m away too = 3ms

This is simple physics... this is what we are used to from everything in our life...
Because of that human hearing isn´t that sensitive to latencies... human hearing isn´t able to identify latencies below 5ms for very sensitive persons and up to 10ms for untrained people... and this only for sound with a sharp attack/transient... without this transient it´s perhaps not even possible to identify latencies double than that...

Latencies below 5ms make only sense for very sensitive people who have at least double routing i.e. routing something out of the machine into a hardware fx and back into the machine and playing drums...
For others you can savely go even higher...

[nIGhT-SoN]

@dellboy Rent-to-own makes it affordable as in you don't have to pay full price at once. You don't pay more, you pay monthly the price of the software. For example, if it's $189 you can pay that money in 1 year or what the developer decides. In this case you would pay $15.75/month. If they offer even more than 1 year, that would be even smaller price per month and more affordable for some people.

Also, with rent-to-own you can pause anytime if you have a rough month or few months and resume when you can.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any protection. I'm saying use a protection that is user friendly, that doesn't use extra resources or need extra hardware.

[apoclypse]

If latency was an issue with USB, you might have a point but it isn't, so you don't. Do you realise that most hardware synths have latency of up to 20ms and more? Scot Solida did a huge test, many years ago, and IIRC, the average latency was something like 19ms. So if your DAW's latency isn't around the same, then any hardware synths you use will likely be out of time. Of course, you won't notice that because, as I said, latency isn't an issue, despite what Apple or MOTU or whoever took your money would like you to believe.

The only manufacturer who has done any significant work with their USB drivers is RME, almost every other manufacturer has less performant USB audio interfaces. Even so you are not going to get anything below 2-3ms even on any RME device. The top performing audio interfaces are almost all TB devices. That's facts.

Your argument is that synths have latency so it shouldn't matter? Okay so If your synth has 20ms of latency, your interface as 10ms of latency, that's 30ms of latency you've added to the signal chain and at 30ms that's more than audible to the human ear. Then you take into account that synths are not the only thing one tracks into a DAW. Vocals, guitars, etc get tracked as well. A typical guitarist standing about 6ft away from an amp is used to 6ms of latency.

Of course it's marketing, numbers are one of their key weapons and the more irrelevant they are, the easier it is to make a product seem better than the competition.

Ofcourse better numbers sell more products. I don't see your point. It's like Intel or AMD selling you a PC with a faster CPU or higher ram speed. Does that negate that fact that it's in fact faster? Does everyone need the speed, no. Some do.

If I have a bias, it is born of 20+ years of using both PC and Mac in roughly equal amounts and being aware of what's important to my craft and what isn't. That's kind of how adults think. Adults also use the quoting system here at KVR a lot better than you do.

Well my 25+ experience says that in general there are less issues to deal with on Macs. Mature and reasoned adults don't call other people stupid without knowing their level of experience or background. That's something children do because they don't know better. Your definition of adult seems immature at best.

[apoclypse]

Real drums don't have any latency at all, except for the speed of sound. Same for a real guitar amp or a piano. Having the lowest latency you can get is never irrelevant to a live performance, because it affects how you play.

And this is latency...

I.e. the drum parts are between 50cm up to 1 m away from your ears...
This means because of the speed of sound that you´ve got latencies from 1.5 to 3 ms between hitting the i.e. snare or kick until it is physical possible for the sound to reach your ear...

An acoustic guitar is at least 30-40 cm away from your ears so it takes about 1.2 ms till you are able to hear what you do...
The hammers of the piano are about 1m away too = 3ms

This is simple physics... this is what we are used to from everything in our life...
Because of that human hearing isn´t that sensitive to latencies... human hearing isn´t able to identify latencies below 5ms for very sensitive persons and up to 10ms for untrained people... and this only for sound with a sharp attack/transient... without this transient it´s perhaps not even possible to identify latencies double than that...

Latencies below 5ms make only sense for very sensitive people who have at least double routing i.e. routing something out of the machine into a hardware fx and back into the machine and playing drums...
For others you can savely go even higher...

That's known already. The point is that when recording adding significant latency to the users performance will affect them. If a guitarist is tracking to a DAW and they are used to 6ms of latency, adding 10ms of latency will be disruptive to them.

But you make a good point. In my case I track with plugins enabled because I can do that on my interface since it has low enough latency to allow me to do so. I can track my guitar to an amp emulation on my DAW and it's not disruptive or if I have a synth I can track to the reverb or effect in my DAW and it's less disruptive to me. Again that may not be valuable to some, but to me that is invaluable.

[claudedefaren]

Toxic thread rife with unmoderated insults and sensitive egos. Typical KVR.

[pdxindy]

Well my 25+ experience says that in general there are less issues to deal with on Macs. Mature and reasoned adults don't call other people stupid without knowing their level of experience or background. That's something children do because they don't know better. Your definition of adult seems immature at best.

In the last few group working situations I've been in, the ratio of Macs has been about 60% to 40%. The PC's consistently required more attention on the computer itself over a period of time. That has continued to be my experience for over 20+ years. For me, Macs have always just worked and let me focus on my interests, not the machine itself.

[nIGhT-SoN]

I've used Macs and PCs and what I can tell, Macs are more limited in the way of what a user can modify on the system. PC with Windows is more wide open and the difference is that most people use an Admin account even if they don't know much about Windows. By default, Mac doesn't give you admin rights without a password and that's what keeps it safe for a longer period.

With PCs, there can be so many combinations of hardware, but that hasn't been a problem for a long time. I'm running a PC with Windows 10 and I must say I haven't experienced a crash making music for a long time. My PC is used for many things besides music. As a media center, gaming rig etc. Last time when I reinstalled OS was last year and because I added a new SSD for the OS and wanted to start clean.

From my experience I could say Windows is becoming more and more stable and safer for professional work, but in the end use what's best for you.

PS. I can't say the same thing for laptops and premade PCs. I got two years ago a HP laptop with an i7 7700hq and I can't say I had the best experience latency wise, but with my self made PC I have really low latency, spot on.

[dellboy]

I bought a new Mac Mini a couple of months ago and the only real advantage I have noticed up till now is the more efficient use of audio.

On my PC, if I have a DAW open I and want to watch youtube or listen to an audio file I have to close the DAW to free up the audio.

No need to do that on the Mac, it just works somehow.

The only other reason for me wanting to own a Mac was to use Logic. But when I found out that I could not use my VSTs in it I was not so impressed. Guess I should have researched better.

Its very quiet though.

Maybe that's because its been mostly switched off.

[THE INTRANCER]

I've used Macs in the past for video production, and they were a nightmare. With Mac's you hope for the best and pray they don't breakdown (insert Apple's Yearly Apple Care Plan to rescue, if you pay it that is). Screens breaking down meaning that you've to either throw the god damn thing out the window or take the former option. Apple Final Cut software being a crash fest when I used it and for no good reason... An operating system that makes you feel like an idiot as a PC user, because it doesn't trust you. With PC's, you learn, not just about the operating system and programs but how to build, engineer and fix them at a fraction of the cost. Having a greater software support library and software like Studio One having far less bugs and issues cropping up, whilst being far better performant in comparison than the Mac.

I'm not having an argument because I'm too busy to argue, and that's final... Don't like what I've said, well that's tough... I'm giving you my honest experience and opinion. Now if some you want to come running out, like a dog that has just chewed on a wasp, be my guest, but I'm not arguing....ok.

[vurt]

why did you leave studio one?

because mac vs pc dammit!

[gentleclockdivider]

How rich with irony, a person who writes "Why is it you think you need a Thunderbolt interface when most of us get by just fine with USB 1.2?" thinking he's the most rational person (if not the only non-idiot) who ever graced the pages of these fora.

The first problem that might, or should occur to one is your basic ignorance fallacy (question whether or not you're sure of your position? I guess not. Dunning-Kruger Rules OK), compounding argument by anecdote. One doesn't know why the other perceives a need only because he doesn't, and lacking the interest doesn't know what may be out there which may mean better performance availed specifically by this tech. USB 3.2. I specifically chose a TB3 interface which contains a technological breakthrough in drivers. Direct Memory Address in a series known as the Quantum series by Presonus.
Yes, I based the decision in some marketing copy: Thunderbolt audio devices utilize bus master Direct Memory Access (DMA) to transfer audio data directly to and from the main memory without using CPU processing and the overhead that would come with it. The DMA engine implemented in the hardware transfers digital audio data directly between the ADC/DAC and the computer memory one sample at a time. was the simplified version

Proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and I have what I heretofore considered impossibly low latency given that it's Cubase under Core Audio. I keep adding total CPU hogs, the heavier hitters (long torturously-enveloped Absynth, multiple MIR Pro instances, convolutions, etc), to my projects and have yet to need the latency increased (lowered it since beginning). 5.833ms round trip for a project I'll have had to render a number of things to even have up in real time (and then with major breakage due to the Absynth builds) on a similarly specced machine and no such interface. A literally stunning difference.

I have no doubt that they are telling a true story with that bit of copy, so whether or not me buying it seems like a gullible Mac user to someone (with that particular crass disposition), it panned out beyond my highest expectation. This advancement doesn't happen outside of this generation of this bus type. These are facts.

Also add bigotry to the list , that summs up bones perfectly
But he's Rock N roll enough to not give a shit

Do you realise that most hardware synths have latency of up to 20ms and more? Scot Solida did a huge test, many years ago, and IIRC, the average latency was something like 19ms.

LOL , not it 's not 20 ms , and it was just one test done by one guy ..that is hardly any evidence
Receptor (64 sample buffer setting): 6.2 ms
Receptor (128 sample buffer): 9.2 ms
Oberheim Matrix: 5 ms
Waldorf Microwave: 3.8 ms
Korg Prophecy: 11.2 ms
Nord Modular G2: 2.5 ms

viewtopic.php?t=60908

That's far from 20ms , you're backing up your claims with slightly altered bogus data ,you're verry trustworthy , you can't accept certain people know a bit more then you do ( imho a lot more ) ...luckily you friend dunning kruger kicks in

[gentleclockdivider]

double post

[pdxindy]

With PC's, you learn, not just about the operating system and programs but how to build, engineer and fix them at a fraction of the cost.

For someone who wants to do that... fine

I have zero interest to learn how to build, engineer and fix them. I don't needs lots of custom possibilities or have tons of options for stuff I don't care about. I'm fine with the more limited choices with Apple stuff. For the most part Apple makes effective choices on my behalf. I'm happy to be an idiot user.

I just want to buy the thing, install what I need and do work with the minimum amount of attention needed for the tool. For that Macs have worked well for me.

I've made far more money using my computers than the cost of them. I consider the cost insignificant. I always buy Apple Care. Very infrequently have I had any problem. I have had to put almost zero time and energy into computer maintenance or repair. Works for me. Everyone should do what works for them.

[nIGhT-SoN]

I bought a new Mac Mini a couple of months ago and the only real advantage I have noticed up till now is the more efficient use of audio.

On my PC, if I have a DAW open I and want to watch youtube or listen to an audio file I have to close the DAW to free up the audio.

No need to do that on the Mac, it just works somehow.

The only other reason for me wanting to own a Mac was to use Logic. But when I found out that I could not use my VSTs in it I was not so impressed. Guess I should have researched better.

Its very quiet though.

Maybe that's because its been mostly switched off.

That's how the ASIO drivers work, but if you have a newer card, it should have dual stream. I have a Steinberg UR 22 mk2 and it has dual stream, meaning I can play youtube, spotify anything else while using ASIO.

I can understand your frustrations with that, before this interface I had an E-MU and it didn't had dual stream so I had to activate release driver while in background.