Why did you leave Studio One?

[starflakeprj]

For me midi is the larger part of any project I have - when talking clips in the project. Synths, organs, drums orchestral and whatnot.

Recorded as audio is just electrical and acoustic guitars, bass and vocals.

So why not give us the same overview and treatment for midi is what I am asking myself?

I think main reason for difference for midi now is
- as you mention storing as separate files for audio
- developers don't make enough music to understand the needs

As I see it they can store midi in project as they do now but
- give us a pool and overview of midi clips as well
- give us timestamps for each clip as well
- and naming conventions templates for clips like in Reaper would be nice

For StudioOne I did all manual renaming of every take, and put timestamp in name as well. Very cumbersome just to feel organized and I can come back weeks, months and even years later as my projects proceed really slow. I don't settle for anything less than professional - and no mix is settled yet for me. Too much to learn still.

Midi file format is rather cumbersome handling back and forth - so proprietary format and store internally as always - no problem. Just miss the same overview as for audio clips.

Can you post a video on how it's working in other DAWs, or that specific DAW (was it Cubase?)?

[lfm]

Can you post a video on how it's working in other DAWs, or that specific DAW (was it Cubase?)?

It was first a general reasoning over StudioOne take handling and what I was missing.
StudioOne
- button on take lane swap that take with what is on track.
- list of takes constantly change as you try takes
- and unless timestamping by naming, I loose track of which was last take
All other daws I remember
- takes lanes remain the same over time, and one of those is active one and played back by track
- list is just increased as you do new takes, naming is not as crucial

My intermediate solution was that I found that doubleclick a take clip instead it copies over that on track. So in this way take lanes remain the same all the time.
Sometimes I do loop recording and each take is named Take1, Take 2 or similar, and if doing single recording if it was Layer1, Layer2 or something.

That was my tip to BONES to see what fits better. I record all midi in realtime, no programming nor editing, so might be different needs if just programming midi, then you loose changes you did anyway.

Then continued discuss over to general lack of pool for all midi clips.
As far as posted here - ProTools has an overview(pool) for midi clips as well.
Otherwise don't know of daw that treat midi clips the same as audio clips - and to me a mystery why that is. As I recall ProTools handle midi and audio on same track, so could be reason for that everything is part of pool.

Last 9 months I have been running Cakewalk, before that StudioOne 15 months, and before that Cubase 2-3 years. All projects, about 20 or so, originate from Sonar. So going between daws like this - some tracks are newer midi clips on. So very convenient with simple timestamps on midi clips as well.

And pool would be a good place to clean up unused takes stuff, as well, for midi - like you do for audio. Now you need to go to each track and look through that.

Not the end of the world, just that you look for assistance in as much as you can in a tool as a daw to support what you want to do.

So midi clip pool is one selling point among others.

[BONES]

For me midi is the larger part of any project I have - when talking clips in the project. Synths, organs, drums orchestral and whatnot.

Exactly, so you save it with the project, where it has the proper context.

Recorded as audio is just electrical and acoustic guitars, bass and vocals.
So why not give us the same overview and treatment for midi is what I am asking myself?

As I said, because one is data, the other is metadata. I honestly don't see what your point is. The audio files are just that - files on your hard-drive - in Cubase or Orion or Studio One, I access them exactly the same way I access MIDI files. They aren't anything special in the way you seem to be seeing them. If I move or delete the folder they are in, they are all gone, no longer accessible to my project. Would you really like your MIDI to be the same when, as you say, it is much more central to what you are doing?

The other thing is that the sequencer data in your host isn't really MIDI, it's metadata unique to that application that can be easily converted to MIDI so having it exist separate to the song file seems stupid to me.

I think main reason for difference for midi now is
- as you mention storing as separate files for audio
- developers don't make enough music to understand the needs

I'm sorry but I make plenty of music and I honestly can't see the slightest use case for it. It doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense to me.

As I see it they can store midi in project as they do now but
- give us a pool and overview of midi clips as well

It's called the Arrange Window.

- give us timestamps for each clip as well

Why, when it is something you modify almost constantly throughout the project - adding automation, changing note lengths, editing velocity values, etc., etc. So what time do you put on it, the time you double-clicked the first note into the piano roll, the last time you saved the song or what? I think maybe the problem is that you assume everyone plays a MIDI part into their sequencer but I have never done that, not even once, since I moved from hardware to software in 2002.

[lfm]

For me midi is the larger part of any project I have - when talking clips in the project. Synths, organs, drums orchestral and whatnot.

Exactly, so you save it with the project, where it has the proper context.

You seems to think that I mean midi clips in the pool - so they are to be stored on disk.

That's not at all what I am saying. I don't care if saved as metadata or actual midi format in the project.

Just listing in the same place as audio clips are. Some tracks contain midi and others contain audio - at least on daws having separate track types for these.

Now majority of daws say
- I have a project pool for overview
- I list audio clips for you so you get overview of project audio
- the large majority of clips in project, midi clips you have to keep track of for yourself
- I don't assist you in doing midi


You don't wrestle with this like I do - so of no importance to you - fine.
That is what forums are for - sharing views.

Since about 70-80% in project are recorded as midi data for me - and completely ignored - is a mystery to me.

Practical to record performance as midi, and then try different sounds as rendered.

As project grows, this become substantial amount of clips.
Smooth to just have a look in project pool.
And I don't even do large orchestrations like many do - like full symphony orchestra or something - then a real treat to get overview.

[pdxindy]

Now majority of daws say
- I have a project pool for overview
- I list audio clips for you so you get overview of project audio
- the large majority of clips in project, midi clips you have to keep track of for yourself
- I don't assist you in doing midi


You don't wrestle with this like I do - so of no importance to you - fine.
That is what forums are for - sharing views.

Since about 70-80% in project are recorded as midi data for me - and completely ignored - is a mystery to me.

Practical to record performance as midi, and then try different sounds as rendered.

As project grows, this become substantial amount of clips.
Smooth to just have a look in project pool.
And I don't even do large orchestrations like many do - like full symphony orchestra or something - then a real treat to get overview.

I like the idea of midi clips being in the project files along with audio.

Bones pointed out one issue with the idea. I usually re-record a clip if I'm not satisfied with it rather than edit it. So I might play a part 3-4 times before I play it mistake free or with the nuance and groove I want. In that situation I don't necessarily want all of them saved in the project file. But if as you say, they are timestamped and maybe color coded which are actually on a track, that would be easy enough to deal with.

On the other hand, I often play different versions of a part and decide I like one in this moment, but also like the others and may use them later in the project. Then I am doing things like creating blank tracks to store them, or moving those clips far along the timeline or in Bitwig, dragging them into the clip launcher for storage.

It would be handy to be able to delete clips from the timeline knowing they are automatically in the project pool and can be retrieved should I want them later. Then no need for housekeeping in the middle of stuff. Be handy to have an export function (with multiple selection). Also would be sweet if they remembered which track they were deleted from and if one could audition them. Add a delete all unused function.

Overall seems like a worthwhile addition. I'm in favor.

[BONES]

You seems to think that I mean midi clips in the pool - so they are to be stored on disk.

Mate, I don't even know what "the pool" is. No DAW I have used has one, AFAIK. Is it like a "bin" in an NLE, where you throw all the resources for a project into a central location, even though they may be distributed all across a network? If so, I don't see any value in that at all. Again, the Arrange window does that perfectly well.

That's not at all what I am saying. I don't care if saved as metadata or actual midi format in the project. Just listing in the same place as audio clips are.

But my audio tracks are in a folder called "AudioTracks", it would be confusing to have MIDI files in there as well. And what I am sayin is that MIDI is just metadata, it doesn't stand up on it's own like audio does.

Now majority of daws say
- I have a project pool for overview

Do they? Which ones?

- I list audio clips for you so you get overview of project audio

I have never seen that in any host I have used - Orion, Bitwig, Cubase or Studio One.

- the large majority of clips in project, midi clips you have to keep track of for yourself
- I don't assist you in doing midi

Of course they do, in the Arrange window. If it's not in there, it's not anywhere. It's the same with an audio track - if I delete the track, the audio is deleted from the project, too, and if I want to use it later, I have to go and find it on my drive again.

Since about 70-80% in project are recorded as midi data for me - and completely ignored - is a mystery to me.

The mystery to me is why that is a mystery to you. It seems completely expected. It's simple logistics - sequencer data doesn't take up much space, so it's easy to keep it all within the project file. OTOH, you can have tens of gigs of audio data for a project and you wouldn't want all that to be duplicated/resaved with every new version you create, so it makes more sense to keep that separate and provide a link to it in the project. Then, having established that, it also makes sense to have a way to keep track of all those linked audio files, which is unnecessary for sequencer data (MIDI) because that stuff is always saved in the project and can easily be recalled and even re-used in other projects.

Practical to record performance as midi, and then try different sounds as rendered.

More practical in my experience to punch it in with a mouse and use the sequencer's tools to propagate it into an arrangement.

As project grows, this become substantial amount of clips.

Why? I tend to have three or four clips per track, no more than about 20 per song, total. And I have no need to keep track of them, because they are all where they need to be. Where are you recording these performances that you need to keep track of them afterwards?

Smooth to just have a look in project pool.

Not at all. It's another window to have open, eating into precious screen real estate. If it was something I needed, I'd create a scratch track and dump them in there, so they were visible in my arrange window.

When I am working, I only have the Arrange window and Mixer visible, everything else is out of the way. And the Mixer view tends to take up most of the screen, between two-thirds and three-quarters, with a narrow Arrange window at the top, with the tracks as narrow as they need to be so I can see them all. It is basically like a big navigation bar, a barebones overview of the project that I can use to get around. I do very little actual work in it.

[lfm]

You seems to think that I mean midi clips in the pool - so they are to be stored on disk.

Mate, I don't even know what "the pool" is. No DAW I have used has one, AFAIK. Is it like a "bin" in an NLE, where you throw all the resources for a project into a central location, even though they may be distributed all across a network? If so, I don't see any value in that at all. Again, the Arrange window does that perfectly well.

Dear BONES
All daws I have used have a project pool where all audio clips are listed like a nice overview.

Cubase got it, called Pool
StudioOne got it, called Pool, loads of sorting options too.
Cakewalk got it, called Project Files
Samp got it
Protools got it

Reaper from manual explain what it's about
"The Project Bay is a one-stop center which allows for the convenient management of a project's media items, FX, item groups, takes and comps. "

So my wish was for these tools to be expanded and also list the midi clips in project - like Reaper manual say "one-stop-center".

Usually expand browser to the right on all of them as I recall. Called a bit differently on each daw.

Using up screen space?
It's nothing you have present all the time, just as needed like everything else.

[BONES]

All daws I have used have a project pool where all audio clips are listed like a nice overview.

I can tell you for a fact that Orion never did.

Cubase got it, called Pool
StudioOne got it, called Pool, loads of sorting options too.

So you mean the browser, then. As I said, handy to be able to see all your audio files in one place, because the audio files won't necessarily all be stored in the same folder. Unnecessary for sequencer data, though, which is. The Pool's function here is to save you having to navigate to half-a-dozen different folders to access all your audio files. That's not something you need for sequencer tracks (MIDI), though, is it?

[andypryce]

All daws I have used have a project pool where all audio clips are listed like a nice overview.

I can tell you for a fact that Orion never did.

Cubase got it, called Pool
StudioOne got it, called Pool, loads of sorting options too.

So you mean the browser, then. As I said, handy to be able to see all your audio files in one place, because the audio files won't necessarily all be stored in the same folder. Unnecessary for sequencer data, though, which is. The Pool's function here is to save you having to navigate to half-a-dozen different folders to access all your audio files. That's not something you need for sequencer tracks (MIDI), though, is it?

Pool (in Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc) is not a general browser for all files on a system.
It only shows the audio files used in that particular song. Be it in the project audio folder or elsewhere but do not show any files other than the ones in the song.

[lfm]

So you mean the browser, then. As I said, handy to be able to see all your audio files in one place, because the audio files won't necessarily all be stored in the same folder. Unnecessary for sequencer data, though, which is. The Pool's function here is to save you having to navigate to half-a-dozen different folders to access all your audio files. That's not something you need for sequencer tracks (MIDI), though, is it?

No, it's called the Pool - is what I refer to.
On Cubase Project menu I believe.

My bolo was for having similar "one-stop-center" to also get overview of midi in the project. Some things are needed for files on disk, like size, which are not relevant for midi.

This midi pool just extract midi from where ever it's stored for the daw. Listed by timestamp, or by track or similar.

Cubase Media Browser is cool too, where you can collect and rate files all over computer(network too) for various purposes. I used it to mark project files which state that project is in etc. Embryo for early ideas, one star.

StudioOne Pool is cool having various sorting options, one to easily see unused audio files, another by track etc, and if it was one strictly by timestamp.

In Cakewalk you can open to get associated audio files for a track, or the general for all in project.

This kind of overview I find useful sometimes. So for midi as well would be nice.

[BONES]

Pool (in Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc) is not a general browser for all files on a system.
It only shows the audio files used in that particular song. Be it in the project audio folder or elsewhere but do not show any files other than the ones in the song.

The browser in any host is a specialised tool. e.g. In Studio Oneit can see inside a project file, something you can't do in Explorer or Finder. You can even see inside a MIDI file and select individual tracks. Again, appropriate specialisation for that type of data, just as the Pool tab is for collecting audio files into one place.

[kelldammit]

But all daws so far fail in handling midi clips the same way as audio clips. You have no history or cache or timestamps or a pool of midi clips. That is where I feel lost as doing midi.

Once you deleted a midi clips, it's gone. Nowhere to be found.

Why does daws not have a project pool for midi clips, with timestamp and all as for audio clips?

With S1, you should just be able to drag the clip to the browser (to a folder in your project perhaps?) before you delete it. Not an automatic pool or playlist, but at least some relatively easy facility is there to possibly keep stuff vs just losing it forever?

To the thread title, left due to no key-aware midi, and just wanted a change of scenery with some old friends. Came back due to key-aware midi and clip gain

[kelldammit]

Maybe what I would love is to have a way to jump fast from the mixer between song markers. In Pro Tools I think I've seen this feature, you can keep the mixer full screen and be able to jump and loop chorus, verse, any part of the song, without having to change to arrange view.

What i've done was to not use the mixer full-screen, but as a pane in the arrange window. I'd drag the top edge of the mixer pane to be just below the time ruler in the arrangement. That way, you can just click to locate without "leaving" the mixer.

[nIGhT-SoN]

@kelldammit, that's a pretty good idea! I'll try that the next time. Thanks!

[LawrenceF]

With S1, you should just be able to drag the clip to the browser (to a folder in your project perhaps?)

^^This.^^ Studio One may have the only two way browser on the market. Not only can you drag things out of it like every other workstation browser but you can also drag things into it, export and render directly into it.

It's also the only DAW I've ever used that can download from the cloud (SoundCloud) directly to the timeline. I suspect PreSonus Sphere will allow that pretty soon as well.