MSF Oscillator: Can I turn Harmonics into a Wave?

[Held]

In the oscillator, I can turn the waveform into harmonics, but is there also a way to go into the opposite direction?

I would like to play with the harmonics and then see the shape of the wave I created for further processing.

Is there a way to do that at the moment?

Otherwise, I would like to submit it as a feature request.

[Faiky]

Yes, that is exactly what I want! For example, it could be swapped out to the cusotm sample (not custom shape).
And while I am here, please a random knob only for phase. I like to use it for example in Sytrus to soften the shape, e.g. Saw, and still have a balanced spectrum. So a further random button just separately for phase... please?

With Ctrl it is already possible to adjust only the levels.

[MeldaProduction]

Well, it would have convert it into custom sample, which is impossible to edit afterwards, so it is kinda useless. With harmonics you can edit it, but afterwards... It looks cool indeed, but it actually isn't , I was thinking about it some time ago as well...

[Held]

Well, it would have convert it into custom sample, which is impossible to edit afterwards, so it is kinda useless. With harmonics you can edit it, but afterwards... It looks cool indeed, but it actually isn't , I was thinking about it some time ago as well...

Having a wave gives you a visualization when using the transform section in the oscillator where as the harmonics view doesn't. You could also save it in the custom wave form, so it's editable afterwards.

But an oscilloscope is an okay substitute, I guess.

[MeldaProduction]

Well, technically wave view is completely pointless . Just look at how saw wave looks in various tones when antialiased

[Held]

Yeah, I've been wondering why you don't display the actual waveform that is being used.

[Faiky]

Well, technically wave view is completely pointless . Just look at how saw wave looks in various tones when antialiased

I know that you hold this view in several posts. But both visualizations have their justification. In the spectrum of a waveform, you cannot tell how "sharp" or "edgy" the shape sounds. The volume over time is not visible there. In the oscilloscope you can see it. Does it sound clicky or soft? Are there transients, does it sound "windowed" or gated? You can recognize all this already by the shape. Not in the spectral harmonics. Especially in deep basses these shapes make an enormous difference. If you use only random phases on a saw wave you have a completely different sound, it sounds felted, soft. But the spectrum stays the same.

Well, it would have convert it into custom sample, which is impossible to edit afterwards, so it is kinda useless. With harmonics you can edit it, but afterwards... It looks cool indeed, but it actually isn't , I was thinking about it some time ago as well...

Why impossible? On custom sample I can apply all the transformations, smooth and everything what's going on in the advanced setting like shape skew, harmonics, shape tranformation...
All these things you can't do in the harmonics.

[MeldaProduction]

Well, to be honest, I simply don't agree with you, sorry. Perhaps one day I make this implemented, but right now, no sorry. The way I see it, looking at a waveshape is just wrong... sorry.

[Held]

Then why did you implement such a fancy visualization in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to have none at all if it's just wrong to look at a wave shape? Especially since the current implementation is misleading and doesn't show the actual wave form.

On the other hand, Vital is coming out soon with a great wave table editor, so we can use that and then import it into MSF. I guess Melda can't be the best at everything.

[MeldaProduction]

Then why did you implement such a fancy visualization in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to have none at all if it's just wrong to look at a wave shape?

Because people asked for it... It has a certain meaning with wavetables, while they are simple, like sine vs sqr, but when complex, it's just a visual gimmick...

Especially since the current implementation is misleading and doesn't show the actual wave form.

What is that supposed to mean?

[Held]

double post. Sorry

[Held]

Especially since the current implementation is misleading and doesn't show the actual wave form.

What is that supposed to mean?

That's supposed to mean that the oscillator shape shows a saw and square wave with an infinite amount of harmonics while it actually only generates a wave with fewer than that when antialiasing is activated, as you already pointed out in this thread.

[Nspace]

In the past, and I mean before spectral became widely available together with Nugen/Flux type of luxury displays at hi-res screens, I just had a DAW and Soundforge...
Soon enough oscilloscope waves became able to edit frame by frame, and such taught me to identify - only by looking at the waveform - the 5 or 6 main types of glitches, let alone to discern most sounds in a summed wave. I may recognize certain producers tracks by their types of soundwaves, more so before RMS SPLs were below -16 dBs.

Yes, that makes me an odd dinosaur in terms of nowadays usages, however at an actual Zoom learning group with mostly young musicians, where typical composition and production routines are shared... you name it; drum racks, bass lines, various percussion, etc. all primarily start with the selection of whatever source that get past through visual tools. Part of a "mastering setup" (as named in a recent thread here). The content, the effects and the choice of layers becomes an ongoing visual balance of frequencies.

Yes, all that adds up into complex waves, different complex waves... A landscape of differences that each composer/producer may get to familiarize with. To each its own. If there is scope for learning and some express a desire, why not provide the tools at hand?
Because... Oscilloscope waves are not good enough (for the untrained eye) or not enough demand for such.

Wait, there are other visual tools. I am yet to learn a lot about what can be translated from spectral displays, particularly because their views vary a lot from the chosen fft size,and focus parameters...
Will get there, but when that happens probably there will be new tools out there to help. Novel creative display tools already exist like Spiral by Photosounder and Ircam-Lab The Snail . Some of us remain attentive and developers keep striving for sure.

///Our ability together with the tools available will improve no doubt... I'd venture to say that probably best implementations will come from mixed technologies and combined usages.
I am taking my baggage along.

[Faiky]

By the way, you can see the waveform if you create the harmonics in a wavetable generator. But my point isn't the visualiszation, It's the editable. I'm often using the advanced settings for the waveform, there you can change harmonics (it's like dividing the octaves for the transformation), tranformation shape and amplitude editings. This functions are realy great!

On the other hand, Vital is coming out soon with a great wave table editor, so we can use that and then import it into MSF. I guess Melda can't be the best at everything.

You are right. Vital looks very nice! I'll strike on the 24th.
I can totally understand Vojtech, how he sets his priorities, he is good at it. With the amount of FR he gets, it's no walk in the park to handle it . But he's surprising us again and again, the only changelog I follow with pleasure.

[Held]

By the way, you can see the waveform if you create the harmonics in a wavetable generator.

Oh, that's cool, although a little small. I just love playing with the harmonics and watching how it changes the waveform and the sound. I mostly wanted it as a learning tool for exploration and fun.

There's also Waveedit which is ok, but I don't like it so much for some reason. But it allows you to change the harmonics and it updates the wave or to manipulate the wave shape and it updates the harmonics.

Vital looks much cooler with it's key-frames, but it doesn't seem like you can draw in the wave shape.

Also, none of the option allow to detune the harmonics which is a shame. Maybe in the future.

I can totally understand Vojtech, how he sets his priorities, he is good at it. With the amount of FR he gets, it's no walk in the park to handle it . But he's surprising us again and again, the only changelog I follow with pleasure.

I also think he's doing a great job. I just think it's really inconsiderate to label a request as "just wrong" simply because he doesn't see the value. Humans are great at pattern recognition and with practice, you can read a great deal from a wave shape as you and Nspace illustrated. Probably much more than by looking at a hundred harmonics and their phase.

But yeah, in the great scheme of music making, it's not worth fighting over.