Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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pdxindy
KVRAF
17836 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:27 am

pixel85 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:24 am
pdxindy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:34 am
pixel85 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:23 am
I really would like to hear music of those who can't live without WT import option in synth. They must do original sounds that nobody else ever did. Otherwise it would be a pointless rant if they use WT import just to make sounds that can be done without this feature :ud:
Here... I did this in Vital. For me, one of the main points of wavetable synthesis is I can use/create my own wavetables to do specific things.

https://dandelionaudio.com/sound/Vital-Vocal-1.mp3
Cool sound indeed. I would be too lazy to create my own Wavetables (I don't mean importing 1 sample - that much I can do ;) )
Various wavetable synths can import and resynthesize audio into a wavetable. It's not exactly difficult. Vital has a text to wavetable function. Some wavetable synths you can import/draw a starting wave and ending wave and create the morphing frames inbetween. Hive has the Uhm scripts.

I find various of these techniques actually easier/faster than scrolling through and trying various wavetables in a closed synth like MX in order to get close to what I have in mind. Same with a synth which has thousands of presets. I can often create what I want faster from init that hunting through tons of presets looking for something that fits what I want.

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pixel85
KVRian
927 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:48 am

pdxindy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:27 am
Various wavetable synths can import and resynthesize audio into a wavetable. It's not exactly difficult. Vital has a text to wavetable function. Some wavetable synths you can import/draw a starting wave and ending wave and create the morphing frames inbetween. Hive has the Uhm scripts.
Interesting. That would be indeed an easy way. I never really cared about it because so far, all synths that I have are giving me all what I want (and more), from music to sound for games. For example, original Massive many times saved me from "effort" of going out and doing foley recordings - I cheated by doing these sounds in MX :D So I really never felt that I need to have/use Wavetable import function.
Beware! The software discussed in this topic has unacceptable aliasing at -386dBTP but it can be fixed by changing the sample rate to 12Bit

Shabdahbriah
KVRAF
5365 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Seattle

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:50 am

pdxindy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:34 am
pixel85 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:23 am
I really would like to hear music of those who can't live without WT import option in synth. They must do original sounds that nobody else ever did. Otherwise it would be a pointless rant if they use WT import just to make sounds that can be done without this feature :ud:
Here... I did this in Vital. For me, one of the main points of wavetable synthesis is I can use/create my own wavetables to do specific things.

https://dandelionaudio.com/sound/Vital-Vocal-1.mp3
That is seriously COOL! :tu:

Looking forward to playing with Vital, as I too very much enjoy making my own wavetables, for ages. ... (nod to VAZ)
I'm not a musician, but I've designed sounds that others use to make music. http://soundcloud.com/obsidiananvil

Dallas_Cashin
Banned
14 posts since 22 Oct, 2018

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm

Is anyone else getting really... weird... behavior with Vital's filters when resonance is cranked up to 100%? For me, I just get a steady droning sine at the cutoff, which isn't affected by anything the envelopes do. Sometimes I have to play a note to trigger it, other times it just starts droning without any gate-on as soon as I adjust the resonance to 100%.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
17836 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:24 pm

Dallas_Cashin wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm
Is anyone else getting really... weird... behavior with Vital's filters when resonance is cranked up to 100%? For me, I just get a steady droning sine at the cutoff, which isn't affected by anything the envelopes do. Sometimes I have to play a note to trigger it, other times it just starts droning without any gate-on as soon as I adjust the resonance to 100%.
I just tested this and am not seeing your results. Works as expected for me. I'm using OSX version

Dallas_Cashin
Banned
14 posts since 22 Oct, 2018

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:28 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:24 pm
Dallas_Cashin wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm
Is anyone else getting really... weird... behavior with Vital's filters when resonance is cranked up to 100%? For me, I just get a steady droning sine at the cutoff, which isn't affected by anything the envelopes do. Sometimes I have to play a note to trigger it, other times it just starts droning without any gate-on as soon as I adjust the resonance to 100%.
I just tested this and am not seeing your results. Works as expected for me. I'm using OSX version
Interesting. I'm on the latest Windows version (1.03), and this happens in both Cakewalk and Reaper, so I'm pretty sure it's not a DAW issue. Maybe Windows-only, then?

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
10952 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:59 pm

I am also having weird issues with filter resonance in Vital. It basically doesn't work at all. TBH, I'm pretty unimpressed by Vital overall. The mod matrix feels like an afterthought and you have to constantly switch between it and the main interface to modulate anything. I'm glad I waited for the free version because I'd be annoyed if I paid for something that is ultimately quite basic.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, UR44C | Studio One | Thorn, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, Vacuum Pro, Equator, ArcSyn, JP6K, Pigments, TRK-01, VG Carbon, VG Iron | Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
17836 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:17 pm

Dallas_Cashin wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:28 pm
pdxindy wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:24 pm
Dallas_Cashin wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:39 pm
Is anyone else getting really... weird... behavior with Vital's filters when resonance is cranked up to 100%? For me, I just get a steady droning sine at the cutoff, which isn't affected by anything the envelopes do. Sometimes I have to play a note to trigger it, other times it just starts droning without any gate-on as soon as I adjust the resonance to 100%.
I just tested this and am not seeing your results. Works as expected for me. I'm using OSX version
Interesting. I'm on the latest Windows version (1.03), and this happens in both Cakewalk and Reaper, so I'm pretty sure it's not a DAW issue. Maybe Windows-only, then?
I'm also on 1.0.3... so yeah, maybe windows only

User avatar
pdxindy
KVRAF
17836 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:20 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:59 pm
I am also having weird issues with filter resonance in Vital. It basically doesn't work at all. TBH, I'm pretty unimpressed by Vital overall. The mod matrix feels like an afterthought and you have to constantly switch between it and the main interface to modulate anything. I'm glad I waited for the free version because I'd be annoyed if I paid for something that is ultimately quite basic.
You hardly need to use the Mod Matrix... Modulation is all Drag-n-Drop. The only thing you need the Mod Matrix for is if you are applying a Mod Curve. Otherwise everything can be done in the main view.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
10952 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:20 am

I hate D'n'D, I like to do things properly. It's not easily discoverable, like a dedicated Envelope knob in the filter section, for example. Presonus carry on about it all the time with Studio One but I hardly ever use it and not knowing it was there in Vital was just another thing that made my first experience with the product quite poor.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, UR44C | Studio One | Thorn, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, Vacuum Pro, Equator, ArcSyn, JP6K, Pigments, TRK-01, VG Carbon, VG Iron | Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

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Jkist
KVRist
179 posts since 21 Jul, 2020

Post Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:06 am

BONES wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:20 am
I hate D'n'D, I like to do things properly. It's not easily discoverable, like a dedicated Envelope knob in the filter section, for example. Presonus carry on about it all the time with Studio One but I hardly ever use it and not knowing it was there in Vital was just another thing that made my first experience with the product quite poor.
Do things properly? WTF does that mean? Drag and drop modulation is about as intuitive, simple, and efficient as it gets. You prefer a more arduous workflow just for sake of complexity?

I guess its just different people with different backgrounds, maybe if you come from the hardware synth world, or a lot of soft-synths modeled after hardware, this might seem a bit alien and awkward for you, but in the realm of software synthesis, workflows like these are the future, and there are reasons for that.

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KTlin
KVRian
533 posts since 20 Jul, 2009

Post Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:20 am

Jkist wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:06 am
BONES wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:20 am
I hate D'n'D, I like to do things properly. It's not easily discoverable, like a dedicated Envelope knob in the filter section, for example. Presonus carry on about it all the time with Studio One but I hardly ever use it and not knowing it was there in Vital was just another thing that made my first experience with the product quite poor.
Do things properly? WTF does that mean? Drag and drop modulation is about as intuitive, simple, and efficient as it gets. You prefer a more arduous workflow just for sake of complexity?
Exactly! I'm on KVR since 2009 and I've read hundreds of threads on this forum but I've never seen somebody complaining about drag'n'drop modulation until now. I really don't get it. D'n'D is by far the best way to do modulation. Super easy, fast and intuitive.

WasteLand
KVRian
1383 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:26 am

Vast Dynamics Vaporizer2 isn't mentioned yet, me thinks. i shall make a list..
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

Dallas_Cashin
Banned
14 posts since 22 Oct, 2018

Post Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:59 pm
I am also having weird issues with filter resonance in Vital. It basically doesn't work at all.
Vital's filter resonance right now is sort of glitchy overall. I suspect (haven't really delved into frequency analysis or anything, just going with gut hunches) Vital is just adding a sine wave on top of things, rather than proper mathematically-modelled self-resonance. If done right, this method of doing things is perfectly-fine and ear-acceptable and saves on CPU, but... Vital is not doing it right.
KTlin wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:20 am
Jkist wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:06 am
BONES wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:20 am
I hate D'n'D, I like to do things properly. It's not easily discoverable, like a dedicated Envelope knob in the filter section, for example. Presonus carry on about it all the time with Studio One but I hardly ever use it and not knowing it was there in Vital was just another thing that made my first experience with the product quite poor.
Do things properly? WTF does that mean? Drag and drop modulation is about as intuitive, simple, and efficient as it gets. You prefer a more arduous workflow just for sake of complexity?
Exactly! I'm on KVR since 2009 and I've read hundreds of threads on this forum but I've never seen somebody complaining about drag'n'drop modulation until now. I really don't get it. D'n'D is by far the best way to do modulation. Super easy, fast and intuitive.
I definitely can't fault Vital for not cluttering up the main GUI with a mod matrix, but just to be devil's advocate here, generally the quickest way of figuring out what's going on, modulation-wise, is looking at a matrix view. Mod matrix also makes it simple to assign sources that don't have tangible controls in the GUI (aftertouch, oscillator output when doing FM/AM, etc), though of course you can always do this with a right-click menu.

I think the way Vital handles this right now is basically okay, though what sucks is that if you click something in the mod matrix, you get a pop-up window that, as far as I can tell, won't close unless you either select something or close the whole GUI. Normally windows like this go away when you click outside the windows, but this is not the case in Vital. So if you accidentally click a source and don't remember what was originally selected, you have to close and re-open the whole VST, because there's no indicator whatsoever of what the current source is.

User avatar
KTlin
KVRian
533 posts since 20 Jul, 2009

Post Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:58 am

Dallas_Cashin wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 am
I definitely can't fault Vital for not cluttering up the main GUI with a mod matrix, but just to be devil's advocate here, generally the quickest way of figuring out what's going on, modulation-wise, is looking at a matrix view. Mod matrix also makes it simple to assign sources that don't have tangible controls in the GUI (aftertouch, oscillator output when doing FM/AM, etc), though of course you can always do this with a right-click menu.
I totally agree with you on this. I love plugins that offer both drag'n'drop functionality as well as a modulation matrix.

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