Lessons for Zebra3 from Vital

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This is just a list of some things in Vital that I think are very cool and may provide some food for thought regarding development of Zebra3:
  • “MOD REMAP” – these are very similar to modulation mappers in Zebra with the important exception that you get one for every single individual modulation assignment in the matrix which means you can use the same modulation source to do a lot of very different stuff. Also, you edit them in the same way that you edit the LFO envelopes which I find very intuitive and convenient.
  • “TRANSPOSE SNAP” – this kinda almost makes up for Vital’s lack of an arpeggiator. It basically makes the oscillator snap to particular intervals when you modulate the pitch, or if you select “Global Snap” it will snap the oscillator to a set of particular pitches closest to whichever note was played (like a MIDI scale snap function). The latter is less interesting to me personally, but with “Global Snap” turned off it becomes super easy to do SID type arpeggios.
  • The LFO grid – one of the things I like most about the LFO envelope editor the ability to choose an arbitrary number of grid lines for either of the horizontal or vertical axis. So for example, it’s easy to make seven evenly spaced envelope points in the same span as six or five. This is also useful in the waveform editor.
  • The Random modulators – I especially like the Perlin type randomization for subtle pitch warbling. For some reason it sounds a bit more natural than the usual random glide LFO. Not quite sure what the deal is with the Lorenz Attractor though, but it seems interesting.
  • The Unison Stack modes – It’s really neat that with just one oscillator you can add an octave into the unison, or a fifth, or both, or an entire major triad etc...
  • There’s recently been some talk about visualizing modulations and I personally think that Vital does this in a manner that’s fairly elegant and unobtrusive yet still useful and informatively. I don’t think animating the wavetables is entirely necessary but I do find it nice to have an oscilloscope in the corner which always seems to sync neatly to the note being played.
  • Filters – Regardless of what you may think of the sound, it’s nice that rather than having separate low-pass and high-pass filters, you can morph between them with either a band-pass or a notch in the middle position. Also there are a bunch of other interesting filter shapes such as a couple of different formant filters and a bunch of combs and phasers, each with unique controls.
There’s a bunch of other little stuff in Vital that I enjoyed and might mention later.

I know the title of this thread might annoy some people, and just as a little preemptive disclosure I’d like to make it clear that these are just my personal opinions. I don’t think Vital is perfect nor do I think Zebra needs to be anything like it (which is obviously completely not up to me). I’m not making any demands and I don’t think anyone has to agree with me or even listen to me. I’m just sharing my personal observations in case they might inspire a respectful and friendly discussion.
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Hehehe, it sounds like Vital developers have looked carefully at Zebra. And Serum. Not a bad thing to do. But as a lesson? - I'm not sure. I'm confident that we have developed ideas beyond the obvious in the past decade.

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NAD wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:37 pm [*]“TRANSPOSE SNAP” – this kinda almost makes up for Vital’s lack of an arpeggiator.
Except you can't Play the Transpose Snap from a midi keyboard like you can a standard Arp.

There is a thread including a screenshot at the Vital Forum where people (including me although I didn't start the thread) are asking for an Arp/Seq such is found in Hive 2.

So I guess there are lessons to be learned somewhere....... :wink:

https://forum.vital.audio/t/step-sequen ... iator/2678
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Urs wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:43 pm Hehehe, it sounds like Vital developers have looked carefully at Zebra. And Serum. Not a bad thing to do. But as a lesson? - I'm not sure. I'm confident that we have developed ideas beyond the obvious in the past decade.
Urs, I'm a huge fan of yours and I have nothing but heaps of respect for you and the wonderful synths you've created. I think it's obvious that the entire industry keeps a close eye on you and Matt Tytel is no exception. I sincerely apologize if you were offended at all by my post. I meant no offense whatsoever and certainly didn't mean to suggest that you are in any way lacking in innovation or inferior to anyone else (when in fact quite the opposite is true).

You do have to admit though, there is some cool stuff in Vital, no?
Teksonik wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:04 pm
NAD wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:37 pm [*]“TRANSPOSE SNAP” – this kinda almost makes up for Vital’s lack of an arpeggiator.
Except you can't Play the Transpose Snap from a midi keyboard like you can a standard Arp.
I agree, it doesn't truely replace a real arpeggiator at all. It's still an interesting and useful feature in its own right.
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Oh yes the Transpose Snap feature is very interesting but I do really miss an Arp. Matt's Helm plugin has a simple Arp and that would be welcome in Vital as well.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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The LFO Grid and Mod Remap functions are both very useful... Mod Remap has quickly become one of my favorite features! I can set an LFO to be a simple ramp, modulated say 5 different parameters and create unique shapes for each target. Then changing the speed or a subtle adjustment of the LFO curve adjusts all 5 unique parameters together as one group.

Mod Remap is also fantastic for MPE and subtle nuanced modulations. I would love that in Zebra 3

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Well, "complex stuff everywhere" is kind of the opposite of Zebra's concept. There'll be a range of general maps (+ rectifiers/polarizers) built into the ModMatrix (as in Hive, Uhbik), and a range for ModMappers for complex shapes. Those will most likely offer free drawing options (like current ModMappers) and the same kind of editable curves/shapes we will have for MSEGs and oscillators.

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NAD wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:24 pmI sincerely apologize if you were offended at all by my post.
Not at all. It looks like Vital gets a lot of things done nicely. I just think the concepts we've developed over the years go into a slightly different direction. Therefore I reckon Zebra3 won't have much similarity to Vital, even if some of its concepts might have obvious similarities.

One could say, I'm surprised it took so long for someone to build something like Vital, I always found that some plug-ins tried to go there, but then didn't go all the way.

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Urs wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:27 pm There'll be a range of general maps (+ rectifiers/polarizers) built into the ModMatrix (as in Hive, Uhbik), and a range for ModMappers for complex shapes. Those will most likely offer free drawing options (like current ModMappers) and the same kind of editable curves/shapes we will have for MSEGs and oscillators.
That is very good news!
Urs wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:33 pm One could say, I'm surprised it took so long for someone to build something like Vital, I always found that some plug-ins tried to go there, but then didn't go all the way.
I would be very curious to hear what you mean by there in "some plug-ins tried to go there". Are you referring to the overall architecture, or perhaps the design aesthetic, or branding/marketing, or is it something else?
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Urs wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:27 pm Well, "complex stuff everywhere" is kind of the opposite of Zebra's concept. There'll be a range of general maps (+ rectifiers/polarizers) built into the ModMatrix (as in Hive, Uhbik), and a range for ModMappers for complex shapes. Those will most likely offer free drawing options (like current ModMappers) and the same kind of editable curves/shapes we will have for MSEGs and oscillators.
I like Zebra's concept. I'm not in favor of complexity everywhere.

Just when it comes to MPE stuff played with my Linnstrument, the ability to carefully adjust curves per target is valuable to using per voice modulation. A few preset curve shapes to apply to say pressure doesn't work well enough cause that premade shape may not be quite right for different MPE instruments or the way/techniques I play or the particular sound. Aftertouch is so sensitive to the specific case. This is where some smartly designed complexity is valuable such that it is out of the way for people who don't need it and there for people who do (who are no doubt a small minority).

Vital is really good for MPE in this regard, yet the main UI is fairly simple. Someone can use Vital and never even go to the Matrix. But that deep capability is there for MPE geeks like me :hihi:

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NAD wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:08 pm I would be very curious to hear what you mean by there in "some plug-ins tried to go there". Are you referring to the overall architecture, or perhaps the design aesthetic, or branding/marketing, or is it something else?
My "almost 1am after plenty of red wine" answer: I would say that the gist off what I mean is beyond architecture. Architecture-wise, Serum is a simple 2-Osc-1Filter synth, but obviously there's more to it than architecture (and I'd say that Serum isn't one of the synths I meant). I more so mean the design goal to create more than one or two independent dimensions of sound creation, such as filter cutoff and wavetable position. Many attempts have been made by manipulations that are somewhat limited (e.g. "same-same") whereas what I sought for Zebra (e.g. OscFX) was always a goal for forms of manipulation that are universal. Meaning, unlike oscillator sync, things that don't create "signature" but allow themselves to align to a context of your own choice.

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Matt, the Vital's developer, like all developers, learn a lot from Zebra.
Zebra and Absynth are the fondation of all new synthesizers. ( my own statement)
And Urs learned from his Modular trip and his passion for synthesizers.
U-He introduce the global snap into Hive2, plus some other's goodies like S&H input, function generator gate input...
What is awesome with passionate Dsp developers, like musicians or sound designers, scientists...they are constantly learning, sometimes copying the concept of X person, with their own twists ,and this X person is learning from that: i call it evolution!
All my best wishes for this Christmas holidays, U-He Team, U-HE and Kvr users!
Cheers,
Yuli Yolo
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the first think when i've seen spectral fx near vital osc was zebra....and in term of sonic capabilities and sound design effort/result i've always asked me why any developers doesn't include similar features over the past decade....sorry for bad english =)

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Whywhy wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:38 am U-He introduce the global snap into Hive2
In addition, Pigments also has this feature and Falcon too (via scripting). While a very welcome inclusion in Vital, it's not an original concept.
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