Viper｜1.2.2 update with bugfixes and new skin

[goldenanalog]

It's ALWAYS a good idea to ask first; but in your case: you've already accurately copied their wavetables w/o a peep from them, correct?

I asked them about the wavetables and they gave me permission to sample it. You are right about the patches might be copyright to third parties, but lets imagine that Viper has a Virus import feature, I WONT be including any Virus patches with Viper, each user can import whatever they wish, which will be out of my hands.

If you implement the Virus patch import feature: assume that there will be “forever” videos on YouTube that will solely be about 1:1 sound comparisons between the same patch running on both Viper and a VTI - in other words: this feature would attract (in my estimation) a lot of permanent attention.

But Im also inclined to believe that as long as your ip is completely independent of Access’s, there isn’t enough of anything there for Access to legally grief you about - importing/sharing native VTI patches would be wholly on the end user.

Question: will Viper then also be capable of exporting patches into a Virus TI? There are many 1000’s of VTI’s out there; being able to import Viper sound banks into a VTI could be an attraction.

[adamszabo]

Question: will Viper then also be capable of exporting patches into a Virus TI? There are many 1000’s of VTI’s out there; being able to import Viper sound banks into a VTI could be an attraction.

Probably not, creating Virus compatible .mid files from scratch is much harder than simply reading them.

[plrdmus]

Question: will Viper then also be capable of exporting patches into a Virus TI? There are many 1000’s of VTI’s out there; being able to import Viper sound banks into a VTI could be an attraction.

Probably not, creating Virus compatible .mid files from scratch is much harder than simply reading them.

In theory it's possible. But is it worth the effort? Mmm... probably not.

[goldenanalog]

Question: will Viper then also be capable of exporting patches into a Virus TI? There are many 1000’s of VTI’s out there; being able to import Viper sound banks into a VTI could be an attraction.

Probably not, creating Virus compatible .mid files from scratch is much harder than simply reading them.

In theory it's possible. But is it worth the effort? Mmm... probably not.

But let’s say that there are some superb soundsets developed for Viper - which don’t have an equivalent in the Virus TI - as the hardware owner: wouldn’t I want to be able to import them into my Virus? Absolutely! Not only that: let’s say that I didn’t want my precious hardware leaving the studio; or that my primary performance tool was a laptop, anyway - it would be a win-win to be able to use the VTI sounds on-stage in software; and to be able to move sounds back and forth between both the hardware and the software.

The first question, of course, is if Adam is willing to subject himself to what is needed to create a bilateral communication environment between the VTI hardware, and his software.

But The real question would be if VTI owners would be willing to pay for Viper. Honest answer, as a VTI owner: no-brainer - I’ve already spent $$$ on a VTI (especially the TI2) so Viper represents a fraction of that cost.

[vertibration]

Adam, is the process of making a converter in Viper arduous? Can this be completed in a following update, or is this something that has to be down the road?

[plrdmus]

But let’s say that there are some superb soundsets developed for Viper - which don’t have an equivalent in the Virus TI - as the hardware owner: wouldn’t I want to be able to import them into my Virus? Absolutely! Not only that: let’s say that I didn’t want my precious hardware leaving the studio; or that my primary performance tool was a laptop, anyway - it would be a win-win to be able to use the VTI sounds on-stage in software; and to be able to move sounds back and forth between both the hardware and the software.

The first question, of course, is if Adam is willing to subject himself to what is needed to create a bilateral communication environment between the VTI hardware, and his software.

But The real question would be if VTI owners would be willing to pay for Viper. Honest answer, as a VTI owner: no-brainer - I’ve already spent $$$ on a VTI (especially the TI2) so Viper represents a fraction of that cost.

Probably. But I mean, the Virus product line is almost abandoned at this point by Access. I guess it'd be like wanting to run software made for Windows 10 on Windows XP. It's possible, but also requires extra hassle. Meanwhile, you can run XP software on Win10 without major issues. So reading VTI patches on Viper would be cool, but doing it the other way is not that necessary.

In theory, you could even code a wrapper that switches to Viper or VTI depending on what you've plugged in. But that's overkill.

Maybe it can bring some VTI users to Viper, but as an ex-VTI user, I'd say there are other priorities such as:

What important or major features of the Virus TI are not yet implemented into Viper?
- Grain and Formant wavetable types
- Wave PWM
- "Analog" filter which was modeled after the Mini Moog cascade filter with self-oscillation.
- LFOs with 68 waveforms to choose from
- Tape delay?
What else?

-Vocoder

And minor ones:
-Some modmatrix destinations
-Softknobs (or macros)

Another thing that I just noticed. Patch randomization.
That could give interesting results.

[adamszabo]

Adam, is the process of making a converter in Viper arduous? Can this be completed in a following update, or is this something that has to be down the road?

Yes, if I get approval from Access, then unfortunately this will indeed be a very difficult and time consuming task, so its not something that will be possible for the near future. I still have to start working on the user skins after the holidays which requires me to rewrite the entire GUI, which is also time consuming, then I have to start working on soundsets, people have been waiting on that, and only then I can start investigating how to make this importing possible. I would have to go through each parameter one by one and converting them so its definitely a fiddly process.

Regarding exporting sounds to the Virus, this never even crossed my mind since then we would be talking about a full on 100% Virus Ti clone which only Access would be able to do. Viper was "only" inspired by the Virus, and eventually it will be its own thing. It has features that the Virus doest have: user waveform/wavetables, arp midi out, extra arp steps for modulation, shimmer reverb, to name a few, and in contrast, the Virus Ti has some features that Viper doesnt have. I will be totally honest, I dont have any idea how the formant oscillators work in the Virus for example, so I dont think Viper will ever have that unless someone with greater knowledge explains in details and shows me some code. I have a limited knowledge myself, I cannot know everything, where as at Access they probably have a team of engineers and mathematicians and god knows who that, work together.

[v1o]

From what I've read the DSP on the Access Virus is all one guy (Chris Kemper). It's all done in hand coded assembly on archaic Motorola DSP chips. This was at a time when you couldn't just Google information on the internet.

[goldenanalog]

Regarding exporting sounds to the Virus, this never even crossed my mind since then we would be talking about a full on 100% Virus Ti clone which only Access would be able to do. Viper was "only" inspired by the Virus, and eventually it will be its own thing. It has features that the Virus doest have: user waveform/wavetables, arp midi out, extra arp steps for modulation, shimmer reverb, to name a few, and in contrast, the Virus Ti has some features that Viper doesnt have. I will be totally honest, I dont have any idea how the formant oscillators work in the Virus for example, so I dont think Viper will ever have that unless someone with greater knowledge explains in details and shows me some code. I have a limited knowledge myself, I cannot know everything, where as at Access they probably have a team of engineers and mathematicians and god knows who that, work together.

Adam: imho what you've been able to achieve thus far is pretty damned impressive - in context: the Access Virus TI is if not one of the finest digital hardware synths ever made; is certainly one of the most mature platforms to date. Rumors abound about the demise of the Virus TI; but I think that the actual story is far more mundane: the DSP chip(s) used in the Virus are simply becoming obsolete; so Sir Christoph Kemper, the 56K programmer behind the VTI, would be continuing to invest his time and energy in essentially what is rapidly becoming a dead platform. The steam roller of new technology obliterating the old, and all that.

Yes, Adam, you would have to learn some new things in order to create a virtual software VTI; and I'll bet you that you're more then capable of solving such problems as how to create a formant oscillator - and god knows that there is an enormous pool of DSP talent residing within the hallowed halls of KVR.

Is building a full-on software clone of the Virus worth your time?

I would say no; honestly advising against it, Adam (which goes completely against the selfish side of my nature) - you put so much into Viper, that it is an extension of you, quite frankly - unless your actual goal is to build a software replica of it where you would gain the most satisfaction (I think that's very important) - then in a way you'd have to do it.

Obviously a lot of people do want a virtual VTI (including me, a current owner) but the actual path looks to be too much - we as the end users are not going to be satisfied with just a clone: we'd want precise replication of sound and parameters; and we'd want bilateral communication between software Viper and hardware Virus.

Maybe a reasonable compromise might be to have it sound as close as possible to the hardware Virus TI (and I'll bet that you can get basic instructions/example code for formant oscillators from someone here) but imho it seems unnecessary to give it even patch importing abilities unless easily done and/or unless you really want to start down that path - id again rather see you spending your time pursuing your own interests in what would/could make Viper "better"

[plrdmus]

Obviously a lot of people do want a virtual VTI (including me, a current owner) but the actual path looks to be too much - we as the end users are not going to be satisfied with just a clone: we'd want precise replication of sound and parameters; and we'd want bilateral communication between software Viper and hardware Virus.

Maybe a reasonable compromise might be to have it sound as close as possible to the hardware Virus TI (and I'll bet that you can get basic instructions/example code for formant oscillators from someone here) but imho it seems unnecessary to give it even patch importing abilities unless easily done and/or unless you really want to start down that path - id again rather see you spending your time pursuing your own interests in what would/could make Viper "better"

At this point, let's just accept that the Virus product line is pretty much dead, and is becoming less convenient each day.

The ability to import all or most of the patches to Viper in the most accurate way possible would be more than enough. And what Adam has already done is indeed very impressive. In the end you don't want to be only a "Virus emulation".

I was even thinking on building a custom controller and use it on Viper and other VSTs. Convenience.

[adamszabo]

Well, I just got a very bad news, I got a reply from Access and they said no, for me importing Virus patches. My question was if they would have an issue if my plugin could have an "Import Virus banks" feature, and I will not modify the .mid banks in any way, All the info I will be getting are from the virus manuals that are freely available and the sysex addresses that I would need are all there written down. I also linked several virus editor plugins by 3rd parties which also read the .mid files. I would be doing the same except I would convert the midi values to a format that my synth understands.

I treat my email conversations confidential, but the relevant info is that, they cannot grant permission to import Virus patches. To make an editor for their products its OK, but to use their content with a different synthesizer is not. Also, using the trademark "Virus" would not be allowed as well. Then I got a quote from the license agreement which I will be able to quote:

"Quote from our software license agreement:

Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly.
You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation."

Thats a shame, I was really looking forward to this. But what I dont understand is that I wont "reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble" anything, I am using the freely available info in the manuals to read the .mid files. I could create a ".mid to .fxb" little converter app, that could still convert the banks, and I wont be using the word "Virus" anywhere on it. So there are two things I can do now, I could also ask them about this if that would be OK, or I could not care, do it anyway, and hope they dont see it and send lawyers. Or I wouldnt be able to do this either. I dont want any trouble with them so I wouldnt want to risk that. If any of you have some lawyer friends or is familiar with these things Id be interested in some input about the legality and what I could do here. Sure, I could also say, "other software can import hardware banks", and "if I dont use the word Virus then I will be ok", but I need some serious answers not just what people "think".

[Vortifex]

Edited

[fdigl]

Well, I just got a very bad news, I got a reply from Access and they said no, for me importing Virus patches. My question was if they would have an issue if my plugin could have an "Import Virus banks" feature, and I will not modify the .mid banks in any way, All the info I will be getting are from the virus manuals that are freely available and the sysex addresses that I would need are all there written down. I also linked several virus editor plugins by 3rd parties which also read the .mid files. I would be doing the same except I would convert the midi values to a format that my synth understands.

I treat my email conversations confidential, but the relevant info is that, they cannot grant permission to import Virus patches. To make an editor for their products its OK, but to use their content with a different synthesizer is not. Also, using the trademark "Virus" would not be allowed as well. Then I got a quote from the license agreement which I will be able to quote:

"Quote from our software license agreement:

Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly.
You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation."

Thats a shame, I was really looking forward to this. But what I dont understand is that I wont "reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble" anything, I am using the freely available info in the manuals to read the .mid files. I could create a ".mid to .fxb" little converter app, that could still convert the banks, and I wont be using the word "Virus" anywhere on it. So there are two things I can do now, I could also ask them about this if that would be OK, or I could not care, do it anyway, and hope they dont see it and send lawyers. Or I wouldnt be able to do this either. I dont want any trouble with them so I wouldnt want to risk that. If any of you have some lawyer friends or is familiar with these things Id be interested in some input about the legality and what I could do here. Sure, I could also say, "other software can import hardware banks", and "if I dont use the word Virus then I will be ok", but I need some serious answers not just what people "think".

Maybe you can take the proxy route. Use an editor tool to import the patches, then save the patch using fxp/fxb if the editor allows it, then simply just read from the exported patch. If not, maybe some sort of screenshot parser would make for a decent approximation.

[seren animation]

"but to use THEIR CONTENT with a different synthesizer is not" is the key legal phrase here. They created the presets in the virus, they own those presets as surely as if they were software.
To allow your Viper to import presets would be fine, but you cannot use the word "Virus" or supply "their" presets.
So no "Virus" preset import button or menu dropdown, or even using the word "Virus" to advertise that it imports virus presets.
It is a problem that you have asked and they refused, probably would have been better just to have added the function, but hindsight is always twenty twenty.

The idea of a proxy editor is an interesting one, they have given permission for that, and after all even changing the name of a preset is editing it.

[recursive one]

I'm afraid that deciphering the way Virus interpets the infromation contained the .mid files (which would be required for any kind of Virus-Viper preset conversion) may be classified as a sort of reverse-engineering the Access software/firmware.

I guess it would be indeed better to ask a lawyer specialized in such cases.