How many of you use Studio One 5's Show Page?

[BONES]

If you're working in a linear / traditional way, you need to come with at least rough apre-conceived idea for the arrangement & progression, capture it and polish a bit.

Yes but S1 doesn't force you to work in a linear way, which is my point. With Scratchpads and the Arranger track, you can work in a very pattern-based, non-linear way. The Arranger track, in particular, allows you to try all kinds of arrangement possibilities very quickly with minimal set-up. It saves you so many steps compared to working in the more traditional way. It does all your slicing and dicing and it automatically ripples the arrangement so you can move different length parts around without any hassle.

With clip launchers you actually let the arrangement & progression emerge from a collection of often random bits & pieces, by experimenting, using actual randomisation, generative tools.

If you want to add randomness to your workflow, use patterns and the probability settings within them. It's a very cool thing.

I understand that this way of working may not appeal to you and that's perfectly fine.

But that's not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is why Studio One doesn't need a Session View and how to achieve similar results with existing tools within the application. As I said at the start, the workflow will be different but the tools are there to work in a non-linear way and they are both very usable and very powerful. You have to remember that for 30 years I worked exclusively with pattern-based workflows and I've only been using Studio One for a few months. It's not like I have anything at all invested in linear workflows and, even though I am still only scratching the surface of what S1 has to offer, I can already see many opportunities to work in a very non-linear way in Studio One if that's what you want to do.

Imagine you're playing your stuff live in front of audience. You observe their reaction. You see they don't like something - you skip it.

We are not there to please an audience and we would never, under any circumstances, modify what we do just to keep them happy. That's what art is, a take it or leave it proposition, and we very much consider ourselves artists, not entertainers.

As I said, there are things you can do in clip launcher you simply can't do - on-the fly, organically and without audible glitches - on a linear timeline.

See, this here, is your problem. You think it is one thing or the other but it is not. Studio One is not strictly a linear sequencer, just as Live is not strictly non-linear. Each have tools for both workflows, it's just that Live has built its reputation on non-linear workflows, where Studio One has not.

All of this comes however from someone who just left clip launching DAWs (Bitwig, Live) because for me such workflow created an opportunity to never comit to anything and to never progress the tracks, because possibilities are endless so why would I choose just one?!

I'm sure the model who sat for Va Vinci when he painted the Mona Lisa was capable of many expressions but he knew which one to paint.

As for the F tard. Can't call any youtubers that since you watch it as well. You should look at yourself first before calling anyone that.

Go away and look up the word "inhabit".

You only like what you started making 15 or 25 years ago.

Until two years ago I had been using a pattern based workflow for 36 years, since I bought my first (brand new) TB 303. Linear workflows are new and somewhat strange to me, a thing I need to learn how to live with. Studio One's non-linear tools have made that much easier, even though they are tools I have never seen or used before. So to suggest I am some how hidebound to a linear workflow is absolutely absurd.

I recommend the macro tutorial, since you don't know how to use them.

I've been using Macros since they first introduced Actions into Photoshop, in Version 4, around 22 years ago. I also use them in Audition, where it makes sense because of the repetitive nature of many of the things you do in an image or audio editor. In an application like Studio One, they make much less sense.

S1 already has a lot of time-saving features and the things Gregor demonstrates in the macro video (which I watched months ago) are not things that slow you down or hold you back. Seriously, how much time is a copy/paste macro going to save you when the time-consuming part of that process is actually setting your cursor to the correct position? Macros are good for batch processing type things but I don't see how they are worth the effort for the kind of work you do in Studio One, things much better suited to hotkeys.

[apoclypse]

S1 already has a lot of time-saving features and the things Gregor demonstrates in the macro video (which I watched months ago) are not things that slow you down or hold you back. Seriously, how much time is a copy/paste macro going to save you when the time-consuming part of that process is actually setting your cursor to the correct position? Macros are good for batch processing type things but I don't see how they are worth the effort for the kind of work you do in Studio One, things much better suited to hotkeys.

Not sure if you've used macros in S1 but they are more than just copy/paste functionality. They are really useful and you can also assign them to hotkeys if that's your thing. It's nice to have macros that do multiple things with one key than have to press multiple keys to do one thing imo.

[BONES]

Name one.

[apoclypse]

Name one.

I mean there are countless. Slice to sections, Reverse reverb. Almost all the Macros in Music Creation and Edit pages. Those functions would require multiple clicks to do something that you can set in macro with one click or keyboard shortcut. Like for example Legato+Overlap. In S1 to do that without a Macro you would need to click on your notes, go to Actions Menu, go to Length, Select Legato+Overlap and then confirm. With Macros it's one click or hotkey.

The one Gregor showed in his video, Pre-Roll auto punch is not really something you can do easily in S1 without Macros. Align Recording is another one. All done with one click or hotkey.

A lot of S1's Actions are tied to multi-function dialogs that require multiple clicks to do one thing. Such as Humanize, the aforementioned Legato, even just selecting a range of notes. Macros make these single functions and those single functions can be mapped to hotkeys. As far as I'm aware there is no other way to map these specific functions to a key than to create a macro first then map it to a hotkey. So in S1 they are pretty much essential.

[BONES]

The macros that come with S1 are a different matter, they are no different from any other part of the application. It's the thought that there is anything you do so often, that is so time-consuming that you would bother to make a macro for it that I am talking about. I simplify hotkeys for things I do a lot, like take something that's CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+... and simplify it to just SHIFT+..., because that's a simple change that can really speed up my workflow, but I can't think of anything I do so repetitively that I feel making a macro would be of any use. And remember, in the last few months I have put more than 50 songs into Studio One, so I think if there were any properly repetitive tasks that needed automating, I'd probably have found a few by now.

Selecting a range of notes is a simple matter of Click-Drag and you can map Humanize to a hotkey on its own (I have it set to CTRL+H). And how often to do you need to pre-roll auto-punch that it would be worth the effort of making a macro?

[apoclypse]

The macros that come with S1 are a different matter, they are no different from any other part of the application. It's the thought that there is anything you do so often, that is so time-consuming that you would bother to make a macro for it that I am talking about. I simplify hotkeys for things I do a lot, like take something that's CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+... and simplify it to just SHIFT+..., because that's a simple change that can really speed up my workflow, but I can't think of anything I do so repetitively that I feel making a macro would be of any use. And remember, in the last few months I have put more than 50 songs into Studio One, so I think if there were any properly repetitive tasks that needed automating, I'd probably have found a few by now.

Selecting a range of notes is a simple matter of Click-Drag and you can map Humanize to a hotkey on its own (I have it set to CTRL+H). And how often to do you need to pre-roll auto-punch that it would be worth the effort of making a macro?

Why does it matter. You don’t have to use it. Some find it very useful.

I’ve been an S1 users since version 2. They introduced macros in 2.5 or 2.6 I think. I have over 300 or so songs I’ve done in the software and have created a few macros here and there to make my job easier in certain audio editing functions. It’s not something that you have to use all the time. It’s just a nice to have feature.

[antic604]

If you're working in a linear / traditional way, you need to come with at least rough apre-conceived idea for the arrangement & progression, capture it and polish a bit.

Yes but S1 doesn't force you to work in a linear way, which is my point. With Scratchpads and the Arranger track, you can work in a very pattern-based, non-linear way. The Arranger track, in particular, allows you to try all kinds of arrangement possibilities very quickly with minimal set-up. It saves you so many steps compared to working in the more traditional way. It does all your slicing and dicing and it automatically ripples the arrangement so you can move different length parts around without any hassle.

I know what you mean, I've been doing it. Scratch Pads + Arranger Track are a fantastic feature & while using Shared Copy are getting very similar to Blocks in Reason, where if you change stuff in Scratch Pad it's populated to main arranger as well!

But it's fiddly to say change the order of things while it's already playing. And it's nearly impossible to mix & match - again, on-the-fly while it's playing - bits from different Scratch Pads. It's just not what Scratch Pads were designed for, unlike Session View.

You can get the same end result, but the way you get there is different.

[wuworld]

This. Although I think S1 sells just fine on its many other merits. It's just a wasted dev time that could be used for native modulation system, for example

We are not Presonus we can't say what's a waste of resources for them. I can say that Presonus is first and foremost a hardware company that focuses on live sound (audio interfaces, mixers, monitors etc). So in that context the Show Page makes absolute sense for them because that has always been Presonus' focus as a company. Providing for live musicians (keyboardists, guitarists etc). They may pivot at some point but I just don't think they will anytime soon. Selling high margin devices like ATOM may change their minds in the future.

I don't use the Show Page not because it's not good, but because MainStage is just a better featured more powerful product at the moment. Though I do think the way you can move through songs in Show Page is quite nice compared to MainStage. MainStage has years of development though so its unfair to expect S1 to be there already.

Ableton/Bitwig requires way too much setup and tinkering etc if all you want to do is play a couple of backing tracks with some keyboard splits and preset changes etc. That's super easy to do in the Show Page without having to learn anything new in the DAW.

To me the Atom outshined the release of Studio One 5. This is what people are buying. Show Page won't do much on the general market (small part) if doesn't tie to something music production related. That's why u barely here anybody talking about it.

While Bones response was not very nice he’s absolutely right in one thing. People here have a very myopic view of what music production or music in live performance means. Not everyone is into clip launching or clip based production. Some just need backing tracks for Live work and easy patch management. One of Presonus biggest markets is providing tools for house of worship. The Show Page is super useful and perfect in that context. Live/Bitwig does not do well in a lot these type of scenarios.

Like I said the Show Page was made to compete directly with Mainstage and that is a very popular tool for live keyboardists in bands etc. There is no real alternative to Mainstage as far as I’m aware least of all on Windows. Presonus is finding a niche/need that hasn’t really been addressed in terms of competition before. Their goal doesn’t seem to be to become the next Ableton/Bitwig.

Nobody uses clip launching or the session view right now. Only the hip hop producers or some edm guys really showcase this. The showpage is going for a unique market that nobody is buying. That's why you barely see any talk about it or people joining Presonus Facebook group seeing if it has similar workflows to Live. You had a 100-200 comments on a thread in Presonus group asking for Presonus to have this like "Ableton with Push" or "Integrate Maschine/KK" or users would ditch S1 until they did. They aren't doing this for the show page. Matter fact its barely any discussion in various studio one users group for the showpage. When they do an update to the showpage, and Ableton does a . update and drops a push 2 standalone let's see what people talk more about. Add FL Studio 21 when it drops, and Maschine updates. Or a new Logic X (which clearly 10.6 was focused on the beatmaker/producer).

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up forums or Facebook as some kind of litmus to how a company makes decisions or whether a feature is useful or not. It's not a popularity contest.

Of course it's a popularity contest. Why do you think Presonus came out with the Atom? Look at what's selling now vs somebody just singing and recording guitar. Why did digital performer add a session like view with NI (ideas view), and now Logic? Why are traditional musicians (who don't sample, use loops, don't like hip hop/electronic music etc) buying electronic/hip hop influenced products like Push 2/Maschine/MPC's?

[BONES]

Why does it matter. You don’t have to use it. Some find it very useful.

And I'm trying to find ways that they might be useful to me. I said I can't see any in the hope that someone might provide some good useful examples that I haven't thought of.

I have over 300 or so songs I’ve done in the software and have created a few macros here and there to make my job easier in certain audio editing functions. It’s not something that you have to use all the time. It’s just a nice to have feature.

As I said, I do use macros in Audition so I can see how they are useful for audio editing. I haven't had to do any lately so I've not tried to use S1 in that capacity yet. In fact, I have only looked at it just now and it seems pretty basic, although I suppose if you combine with effects and stuff, you can probably do a fair bit quickly. I can certainly see some benefit in creating a macro to quickly remove breaths from a vocal track. Something to look forward to.

And it's nearly impossible to mix & match - again, on-the-fly while it's playing - bits from different Scratch Pads.

I'd use the main arrangement and arranger tracks for that. Have all your "scenes" together at the head of the arrangement window but start your playback further along, then keep dragging things to the end of the arrangement as you want/need them and use ALT-drag to make copies. You'd basically be taking blocks (scenes) from behind the playhead and dragging them in front so they get played.

[apoclypse]

We are not Presonus we can't say what's a waste of resources for them. I can say that Presonus is first and foremost a hardware company that focuses on live sound (audio interfaces, mixers, monitors etc). So in that context the Show Page makes absolute sense for them because that has always been Presonus' focus as a company. Providing for live musicians (keyboardists, guitarists etc). They may pivot at some point but I just don't think they will anytime soon. Selling high margin devices like ATOM may change their minds in the future.

I don't use the Show Page not because it's not good, but because MainStage is just a better featured more powerful product at the moment. Though I do think the way you can move through songs in Show Page is quite nice compared to MainStage. MainStage has years of development though so its unfair to expect S1 to be there already.

Ableton/Bitwig requires way too much setup and tinkering etc if all you want to do is play a couple of backing tracks with some keyboard splits and preset changes etc. That's super easy to do in the Show Page without having to learn anything new in the DAW.

To me the Atom outshined the release of Studio One 5. This is what people are buying. Show Page won't do much on the general market (small part) if doesn't tie to something music production related. That's why u barely here anybody talking about it.

While Bones response was not very nice he’s absolutely right in one thing. People here have a very myopic view of what music production or music in live performance means. Not everyone is into clip launching or clip based production. Some just need backing tracks for Live work and easy patch management. One of Presonus biggest markets is providing tools for house of worship. The Show Page is super useful and perfect in that context. Live/Bitwig does not do well in a lot these type of scenarios.

Like I said the Show Page was made to compete directly with Mainstage and that is a very popular tool for live keyboardists in bands etc. There is no real alternative to Mainstage as far as I’m aware least of all on Windows. Presonus is finding a niche/need that hasn’t really been addressed in terms of competition before. Their goal doesn’t seem to be to become the next Ableton/Bitwig.

Nobody uses clip launching or the session view right now. Only the hip hop producers or some edm guys really showcase this. The showpage is going for a unique market that nobody is buying. That's why you barely see any talk about it or people joining Presonus Facebook group seeing if it has similar workflows to Live. You had a 100-200 comments on a thread in Presonus group asking for Presonus to have this like "Ableton with Push" or "Integrate Maschine/KK" or users would ditch S1 until they did. They aren't doing this for the show page. Matter fact its barely any discussion in various studio one users group for the showpage. When they do an update to the showpage, and Ableton does a . update and drops a push 2 standalone let's see what people talk more about. Add FL Studio 21 when it drops, and Maschine updates. Or a new Logic X (which clearly 10.6 was focused on the beatmaker/producer).

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up forums or Facebook as some kind of litmus to how a company makes decisions or whether a feature is useful or not. It's not a popularity contest.

Of course it's a popularity contest. Why do you think Presonus came out with the Atom? Look at what's selling now vs somebody just singing and recording guitar. Why did digital performer add a session like view with NI (ideas view), and now Logic?

Your problem is that you don't actually have numbers or the market research to make claims about what Presonus' motivations are. Sure Presonus may want to cater more to producers, especially hip hop producers who have taken to S1 quite a bit from what I've seen. That still doesn't mean they care or want to add session view to S1. I'm not saying they won't I'm just saying that Facebook posts, forums posts etc is not a good indication of "popularity", it's an indication of the vocal few speaking loudly.

Why are traditional musicians (who don't sample, use loops, don't like hip hop/electronic music etc) buying electronic/hip hop influenced products like Push 2/Maschine/MPC's?

Okay but how many traditional musicians are doing this versus those who just want to use a DAW linearly? The problem is that a lot of people go on feelings or anecdotal evidence and then expect a company to turn on dime based on these "feelings". That's not enough imo. That's why most of these companies do their own make research and make decisions based on that.

Anecdotally most Ableton users I've seen on YouTube etc don't even use the Session view they use the Arrange view and drag and drop clips, audio files directly on to the Arranger view. Kind of like old school Acid. You can do that in pretty much any DAW. Also Anectdotally I haven't seen a lot of videos of Logic users actually using the Clip view other than reviews or how to use it. Does that mean no one is using it for actual production? How many are using it in a live performance. The same for DP. I don't know, I need more evidence on that.

[BONES]

Why do you think Presonus came out with the Atom? Look at what's selling now vs somebody just singing and recording guitar. Why did digital performer add a session like view with NI (ideas view), and now Logic? Why are traditional musicians (who don't sample, use loops, don't like hip hop/electronic music etc) buying electronic/hip hop influenced products like Push 2/Maschine/MPC's?

The same answer to each of these questions - companies need products to sell in order to generate revenue to keep themselves going. So once you have all the features your core customer base needs, you start adding features to appeal to a broader audience, thereby growing your customer base and increasing your revenue.

I think you'll find guitar sales still far outstrip anything in our world so the "somebody just singing and playing guitar" is almost certainly more important to a company like Presonsus than we are. Things like Atom and a Session View offer only incremental increases in revenue to these guys.

[Amberience]

It's not really something I care about tbh. I have a Push2 controller and Ableton, so for all live performance stuff that's the way I would go. With Studio One I use it because I like how the mixer works primarily. The arrange page is next, although I find the takes system a bit annoying sometimes. Not as much as Reaper though to be fair.

[kenporter]

Why does it matter. You don’t have to use it. Some find it very useful.

And I'm trying to find ways that they might be useful to me. I said I can't see any in the hope that someone might provide some good useful examples that I haven't thought of.

I use macros in Studio One to insert my favorite effects or instruments. Rather than selecting them in the browser and dragging them onto a track, I press a key command.

Also, I like macros for deactivating and hiding (instrument) tracks after converting them to audio.

Even little annoyances in Studio One can be fixed with a macro, for example you can bounce an event, but not a selection of an event. I created a macro that splits the selection of an event first and then bounces it.

I prefer how zooming works in Logic, so I created something similar with a macro, i.e. the horizontal and vertical auto-zoom to maximize the space in the arrange and edit window. I still have to press a key command in Studio One, unlike Logic, but it's a lot faster for me doing it with a macro than without. For little things like that I find macros very useful.

Hope this helps the inspiration of how macros can be useful.

Thanks,
Ken

[wuworld]

Why do you think Presonus came out with the Atom? Look at what's selling now vs somebody just singing and recording guitar. Why did digital performer add a session like view with NI (ideas view), and now Logic? Why are traditional musicians (who don't sample, use loops, don't like hip hop/electronic music etc) buying electronic/hip hop influenced products like Push 2/Maschine/MPC's?

The same answer to each of these questions - companies need products to sell in order to generate revenue to keep themselves going. So once you have all the features your core customer base needs, you start adding features to appeal to a broader audience, thereby growing your customer base and increasing your revenue.

I think you'll find guitar sales still far outstrip anything in our world so the "somebody just singing and playing guitar" is almost certainly more important to a company like Presonsus than we are. Things like Atom and a Session View offer only incremental increases in revenue to these guys.

Yes it's to generate revenue. That's why they came out with it. What are modern music users buying right now? Pad controllers/loops and samples. The Atom line is one of the best sellers right now. Are today's users going to be more excited about a new ableton update with a stand alone push 3 or you recording you're band from 20 years ago using the show page. Also, as far as what's out certain genre's of music like electronic/hip hop have had a big influence.

I will say it again the Atom has outshined the release of Studio One 5. The show page is nice, but unless they tie it to songwriting/music production related features it won't do anything (except the old school musicians who just record themselves).

[BONES]

How do you know what's selling and what isn't? I'd suggest that the fact Presonus only have a couple of controllers but have dozens of different monitors, to cater for all kinds of situations and budgets, says that they sell a lot more speakers and that software is just a sideline for them. Selling controllers adds incremental value and exploits existing supply lines. Even Studio One is probably just a tool to help them sell more hardware.

I use macros in Studio One to insert my favorite effects or instruments. Rather than selecting them in the browser and dragging them onto a track, I press a key command.

I avoid stuff like that, as it encourages you to do things the same old way all the time. I like to look at my full list of instruments before I decide which one I might want to use. I do "Favourite" things, but that's more about clearing out things that are only there for backwards compatibility, and my Favourites lists are very long.

Also, I like macros for deactivating and hiding (instrument) tracks after converting them to audio.

Yeah, I never do things like that. It is really important to me to be able to see absolutely everything that's going on at once and I never bounce anything to audio.

I created a macro that splits the selection of an event first and then bounces it.

How does it know where to split the clip? It seems to me that's the time-consuming part and after that it's just a right-click menu away. But, again, I never bounce anything so I may be wrong on that.

Hope this helps the inspiration of how macros can be useful.

Thanks, it at least explains why other people might need them. I prefer to keep everything sufficiently simple that I never need those kinds of conveniences.