Reason+ = subscription model (20€ month)

[antic604]

They aren't trolling! Antic has become absolutely infuriating with his 'antics' in these threads and his props shilling. Eh eh. Whatevs.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I just don't get why - most - people are so upset.

Reason+ isn't mandatory, you can still use, try & upgrade stuff like you always did and never touch the subscription. Will that change in couple of years? Who knows. Maybe all DAWs will go sub-only.

The Suite people are most vocal, but - again - I don't understand why. They keep their DAW & their REs. If Suite was to be continued going forward, they'd still have to pay more than Standard users to upgrade, because (some?) REs released between versions would be added and obviously they wouldn't be free. So in reality it's only about the name and hurt egos, which is silly.

AFAIK the only 2 groups that are really affected are:
- those that have 11 lite/intro and planned to upgrade to 12 lite/intro, which is not an option anymore
- 3rd party RE devs, because "shop" was removed from top of the page to the bottom and few people (of those subscribing to Reason+) will be interested to buy a 3rd party RE for a product they don't own

The complaints about timing and quality of their marketing hold some water, sure. But in the end why does it matter? You can watch, read & digest the stuff for yourself, can't you? No company is perfect in that regard, especially if the user base goes out of their way to interpret every doubt or ambiguity in a negative way.

[k-tronix]

Adobe is not doing that well these days because folks are sick of subscriptions (expensive ones at that) that provide little incentives for businesses to make upgrades & new additions worth the cost. Professionals have been shifting to alternatives including the Affinity Suite, On1, Capture One, etc. Adobe had to give away XD in order to even stay competitive in the UX/UI design market that is dominated by Sketch & Figma.

Since you're an MBA can you kindly explain what's going on with Adobe's financials here. Its from wiki. I believe they switched to subscriptions in 2013.

That's an interesting one: Adobe's products are industry standards, ensconced in every professional's arsenal of tools. Such professionals are accustomed to using Adobe's products and rely on the compatibility and convenience of Adobe Cloud. Despite years a lack-luster, incremental upgrades, Adobe was having trouble incentivizing users to pay for upgrades. Given their strength in the market and being locked into the UI/UX, without much dynamic improvement available (changes would cause dissent within their massive user base), they adopted a subscription model. This was a natural progression because they could risk losing a small share of their user base while maintaining dominance while supporting the code of a stagnating feature list. The users have a high degree of elasticity in the prices set by Adobe (their employers or income pay for the Adobe subscription).

When Reason first arrived, it was revolutionary because it was self-contained, stable, innovative, and light on CPU. New and innovative plugins were fewer then. The cost was reasonable and Propellerhead's flagship rose to prominence. The competitive landscape has changed significantly since then. Sound packs and modules are a commodity. RS has inherited a lagging feature list for the DAW and is competing with sounds and modules that work in modern DAWs. Reason Studios is now competing on several fronts (DAW, sound sets, modules). The recent move to make the rack a plug-in itself, should have expanded the usefulness of Reason within the longer-term users and ought to have driven upgrades. Reason not dominant (certainly not in the DAW market). Avid successfully brought ProTools into a subscription model because it was the market leader among professional users at that time. That user base and business case parallels Adobe's decision and market snapshot at the time.

What DJBuddhaBear wrote is in line with the some of the concepts from Porter's 5 Competitive Forces model, which is a powerful and appropriate business strategy model to apply in this case. Some of the relevant forces are new entrants seeking to enter the market (e.g., Universal Audio with their new DAW), the significant threat of substitutes (e.g., Ableton Live and Bitwig are incredible), bargaining power of customers (these offerings are are commodities, readily available elsewhere and customers may only buy during sales), etc. Under the Propellerhead moniker, the company differentiated Reason from the other offerings quite well. Unfortunately, to maintain the level of development to sustain differentiation, capital requirements are high due to a highly competitive environment. From a competitive perspective, RS has a Herculean challenge ahead: Proprietary modules and sounds are nearly impossible to differentiate from other offerings yet remain competitive in quality and price. Their DAW requires significant updates to match features now standard in the market. The subscription model is focused on new users, but I fear it is priced at too much of a premium to gain too much market share in the long-run. There will likely be a top-line revenue bump, but will it sustain growth and allow RS to implement the DAW upgrades needed to compel the existing user base to continue to purchase license upgrades? It's doubtful because the subscription model offers little value to the longer-term users (we can all get a curated 808 kit and probably already have several collecting digital dust).

[goldenanalog]

What’s to keep Reason Studios from offering their subscribers a “buy-in” to V12 for a great price? Or a graduated pricing structure based on how long you’ve been a monthly subscriber? Maybe incentivize their yearly subscribers to buy V12 perpetual w/a choice of RS’s RE’s - or even go back to the “Suite” model where you get V12 plus the entire compliment of RS’s RE’s for an “insane” price at different times during the year?

An excellent question was asked - as a subscriber: why would I want to buy 3rd party RE’s if Reason is a rental? So the answer to that is that at some point: either subscribers will have to own Reason to shore up their investment in 3rd party RE’s; or: 3rd party RE’s will have to become part of separate subscriptioning - which likely won’t work because especially monthly fees will balloon thus chasing off monthly subscribers if they’re renting both Reason and 3rd party plugin bundles.

This is just my opinion, but maybe Reason Studios would be wise at this point to take a good look at Plug-in Alliance and how they run their shop: point being that there are different ways one gains use of PA’s software. Of course: everything that Plug-in Alliance sells licenses for falls under PA’s umbrella; whereas RS has many independent 3rd parties that sell their own RE’s through RS’s shop.

[Trensharo]

They also discontinued Intro and Suite. This is like PreSonus deleting Studio One Prime and Studio One Pro and keeping Artist when they announced Sphere.

Now, either you pay $399 or subscribe for more than the price of a Studio One Rent-to-Own off of Splice if you want to use Reason... or barely more than a Pro Tools subscription that includes UVI Falcon 2. That's ignoring the fact that many DAWs do have cross grade pricing, and run more frequent promotions that drive the purchase price down significantly.

In the current market of Free or Very Cheap Plug-Ins and Soft Synths... the value of those Reason Rack devices isn't nearly as high as they used to be. Indeed, Reason itself isn't bring as much value as it used to. The base DAW is underdeveloped.

So, they're really depending on loyalists making altruistic purchases (or simply being unwilling to move to a different DAW) and people getting this to use as a sort of "Budget Komplete."

[Trensharo]

Reason Studios is now competing on several fronts (DAW, sound sets, modules). The recent move to make the rack a plug-in itself, should have expanded the usefulness of Reason within the longer-term users and ought to have driven upgrades.

They're also competing in a market where people just have to wait a few months and they can get Komplete for $300. At this point it competes more with that than with the other DAWs, Lol. The Reason DAW is only a few steps beyond ACID Pro. The Rack Devices were really the selling point.

Unfortunately, Soft Synths and Plug-Ins are common, high quality, and cheap (generally speaking), these days. IMO, the Reason Rack Plug-In was about 5 years too late. If they had done that earlier, they could probably have developed a pretty good business around the sale of Rack Devices to people using other DAWs.

But those don't look nearly as attractive as they used to (in many cases, if not most).

What’s to keep Reason Studios from offering their subscribers a “buy-in” to V12 for a great price? Or a graduated pricing structure based on how long you’ve been a monthly subscriber? Maybe incentivize their yearly subscribers to buy V12 perpetual w/a choice of RS’s RE’s - or even go back to the “Suite” model where you get V12 plus the entire compliment of RS’s RE’s for an “insane” price at different times during the year?

An excellent question was asked - as a subscriber: why would I want to buy 3rd party RE’s if Reason is a rental? So the answer to that is that at some point: either subscribers will have to own Reason to shore up their investment in 3rd party RE’s; or: 3rd party RE’s will have to become part of separate subscriptioning - which likely won’t work because the monthly fees especially will balloon thus chasing off subscribers - if they’re renting both Reason and 3rd party plugin bundles.

I'm not sure how many developers will want to go for a subscription, especially if they're already struggling to sell the RE's in decent numbers, and the profits (via sub) aren't competitive with direct sales. Maybe some lesser developers will do this, but those don't tend to be the most in-demand RE's anyways... The subscription will not look attractive if it plays out that way.

I don't think we'll see a developer like UJAM just throw all of their plug-ins in a $9.99 Reason Rack Device subscription, for example.

I do agree with you on the subscription thing, though. Pro Tools (which uses AAX) works as a subscription because plug-ins typically include both AAX and VST (unless AAX-only, in some cases). So, even if you decide to stop using Pro Tools, you can take those plug-ins to Cubase, REAPER, Studio One, or some other DAW. Reason's Rack devices are like AAX. They don't go anywhere else... So, in order for this to be worth the investment, the developer needs to give both the RE and VST in the same package.

Otherwise, why bother? You're just risking dumping cash.

That's ignoring the fact that Reason+ is literally more than a Studio One Rent-to-Own, so anyone who wants a full-featured DAW but can't pay $3-400 out of pocket can just get that.

The pricing and mode of sale is not competitive.

Most of the rack devices aren't good enough to Rent vs. Buy something else - and [definitely] neither is the base DAW.

[antic604]

This is like PreSonus deleting Studio One Prime and Studio One Pro and keeping Artist when they announced Sphere.

Are you mad? Uninformed? Purposefuly deceitful?

Studio One 5 Artist has a lot less actual DAW features than Studio One 5 Professional (chord track & harmonic editing, extended FX chains & multi-instruments, note FX, scratch pads, etc.), not just missing instruments, effects! And extra instruments & FX is the only difference between Reason Suite and Standard.

That's not at all comparable to RS discontinuing Reason Suite, that was just Reason Standard + some cheap REs, that you keep or can still get if you didn't have them.

[Trensharo]

This is like PreSonus deleting Studio One Prime and Studio One Pro and keeping Artist when they announced Sphere.

Are you mad? Uninformed? Purposefuly deceitful?

Studio One 5 Artist has a lot less actual DAW features than Studio One 5 Professional (chord track & harmonic editing, extended FX chains & multi-instruments, note FX, scratch pads, etc.), not just missing instruments, effects! And extra instruments & FX is the only difference between Reason Suite and Standard.

That's not at all comparable to RS discontinuing Reason Suite, that was just Reason Standard + some cheap REs, that you keep or can still get if you didn't have them.

Reason 11 doesn't even have a Drum Sequencer/Pattern Editor. You have to buy it for $69 as a Rack Device.

Some "features" in Studio One are implemented as Devices in Reason.

So, yes... I'm going there.

Additionally, this wasn't meant to be taken literal. It was a rhetorical device used to get the point across.

Studio One Artist's feature set is actually pretty complete when you compare it to the actual Reason DAW/Sequencer, though, so I'm standing by what I wrote... Do we need to go there?

-----

And why would I pay $399 + $50-70 for multiple REs for an underdeveloped DAW/Sequencer? To use [generally worse ]Synths, Instruments and a few decent players in another DAW (there are a few exceptions, naturally)? For the price of Komplete 13 (for example)?

Instruments are easy to add to a DAW, but features are not - this is why Reason users have been asking for Features and QoL/Workflow improvements. Unless you're selling this as a competitor to Native Instruments' flagship bundle, I'm not seeing where the value is... and even then, the value is much less - comparatively speaking.

I'm aware that Reasoners will not see it that way. That's predictable.

But this was done to onboard NEW users onto Reason, so try seeing it from that perspective.

[antic604]

And it wasn't meant to be taken literal. It was a rhetorical device used to get the point across. Calm TF Down.

Since when lie is a "rhetorical device"?

A lot of the "features" in Studio One are implemented as Devices in Reason.

Those features of S1 Pro cannot be purchased as devices to extend functionality of S1 Artist:
- 64-bit floating-point WAV recording and export
- AAF Export
- Channel Editor
- Chord Track and Harmonic Editing
- Extended FX Chains
- Import Song Data
- Listen Bus
- Mix Engine FX
- Mixer Scenes
- Project Page (mastering suite)
- Score View with printing
- Scratch Pads
- Show Page
- Video Import/Export Player

There's no features of Reason Suite that CAN'T be added to Standard by buying a RE.

And why would I pay $399 + $50-70 for multiple REs for an underdeveloped DAW/Sequencer? To use [generally worse ]Synths, Instruments and a few decent players in another DAW (there are a few exceptions, naturally)? For the price of Komplete 13 (for example)?

Oh, so you have a bone to pick with Reason, not Reason+. No one forces you to buy one or subscribe to it

This is why Reason users have been asking for Features and QoL/Workflow improvements. Unless you're selling this as a competitor to Native Instruments' flagship bundle, I'm not seeing where the value is... and even then, the value is much less - comparatively speaking.

It was clearly stated Reason 12 is coming this year with high-res GUI, new devices and workflow features. "Calm TF down"

[Trensharo]

And it wasn't meant to be taken literal. It was a rhetorical device used to get the point across. Calm TF Down.

Since when lie is a "rhetorical device"?

What are you talking about?

I didn't lie. I stated "X was LIKE Y." You disagreeing for the sole reason of defending a company does not make that a lie. I was speaking metaphorically. It's not that uncommon, and I will not be faulted for your apparent inability to understan that.

A lot of the "features" in Studio One are implemented as Devices in Reason.

Those features of S1 Pro cannot be purchased as devices to extend functionality of S1 Artist:
- 64-bit floating-point WAV recording and export
- AAF Export
- Channel Editor
- Chord Track and Harmonic Editing
- Extended FX Chains
- Import Song Data
- Listen Bus
- Mix Engine FX
- Mixer Scenes
- Project Page (mastering suite)
- Score View with printing
- Scratch Pads
- Show Page
- Video Import/Export Player

There's no features of Reason Suite that CAN'T be added to Standard by buying a RE.

Are any of the bolded features in Reason 11?

And I see you're still missing the point, because you apparently cannot read?

Oh, so you have a bone to pick with Reason, not Reason+. No one forces you to buy one or subscribe to it

Incorrect. I won't subscribe to a DAW simply because of the nature of music production and how non-portable DAW-specific project formats are. A subscription locks you into a subscription, or forces you to waste money later by buying perpetual to retain access to your projects even after you were subscribed for potentially an extended period of time.

A subscription makes no sense.

This is not like Adobe where you can open your PDF in Affinity - albeit maybe with some features disabled/flattened.

Or Microsoft where you can open your Word or Excel Documents in Word or Quattro Pro; and just edit the incompatible formulas, etc.

DAW formats are non-portable, so the only way to ensure your retain your work is to "flatten" things down by bouncing stems. I prefer not to do that.

The reason Subscription is just a bad value decision, for me, so I'd only consider the perpetual license.

[antic604]

What are you talking about?

I didn't lie. I stated "X was LIKE Y."

You said RS dropping Suite is equivalent to Presonus dropping Pro and leaving just Artist.

It's not. It's misleading. It's false equivalence.

[Trensharo]

They also discontinued Intro and Suite. This is like PreSonus deleting Studio One Prime and Studio One Pro and keeping Artist when they announced Sphere.

Who's lying, now?

It's not misleading, it's not false equivalency. The reason DAW is in such a state that it really compares more with Studio One Artist than Pro.

Ignoring the fact that you can Rent-to-Own the latter for cheaper than the subscription; and often outright for cheaper due to far better (more than occasional) promotions.

[antic604]

They also discontinued Intro and Suite. This is like PreSonus deleting Studio One Prime and Studio One Pro and keeping Artist when they announced Sphere.

Who's lying, now?

You are, still. "like" means it's comparable. In this case it's not even close.

[Trensharo]

They also discontinued Intro and Suite. This is like PreSonus deleting Studio One Prime and Studio One Pro and keeping Artist when they announced Sphere.

Who's lying, now?

You are, still. "like" means it's comparable. In this case it's not even close.

Do they not teach the concept of "metaphor" in Poland?

Am I butting up against a language barrier, or something?

Because this is one of the most worthless arguments anyone has tried to wage with me in... a long time.

The metaphor is a rhetorical device meant to get a point across. It isn't meant to be taken literally. The inherent level of "but that's not true" in the metaphor is the ENTIRE POINT of it. This is why it uses a comparative ("is like") and does not make a direct equivalence ("is," only). I don't know how else to explain this to you. You're so defensive of a piece of software that your you can't even comprehend basic language use. Like I said, we do this in speech every day, countless times... in every language.

It was never meant to be taken literally - as I stated in my first reply to you. The only person here doing that, is you... and laughably so.

The entire forums understood what I meant, except you.

[chk071]

So much bla, arguing, and insulting, all in vain. God must have had a weird day when he created the internet.

One of the very few positive people here being called a shill is really just the tip of the iceberg.

[antic604]

Do they not teach the concept of "metaphor" in Poland?

Am I butting up against a language barrier, or something?

Metaphor is when you use a familiar thing to explain a new or difficult concept.

What you're doing is comparing breaking a finger to losing an arm. That's closer to hyperbole.

I understand a lot of people are frustrated with Reason in general: that they've slept for the last 10 years, that they're trying to milk their users, that the whole messaging around Suite was a big disaster, that Reason+ looks like another misguided step no one asked for...

But once the dust settles, most will realise Reason+ doesn't concern them at all, it's not mandatory and might be a good thing in the long run once they iron out the kinks. And that Reason is a great DAW. Flawed like any other, with its pros & cons that every individual sees in different places.