Software vs Hardware Synth (better investment for beginners?)

[zerocrossing]

Maybe for you but I wouldn't use anything like that. I much prefer using my mouse, especially where I can just click or double-click and enter a value and/or hold down CTRL or SHIFT so I can make much finer adjustments than I could with anything as crude as a hardware knob or slider.

A lot of people prefer to play there instruments and twiddle knobs at the same time which is obviously not possible when using a mouse. And anyway, whats wrong with having both paths at your disposal ?

With regard to controllers I have a Nektar Panorama P6 which has decent mapping to Cubase and Studio One onboard instruments, and the resolution of the knobs seems good enough for most tasks. Its when using independent VSTS that the mapping disappears. I have a couple of old Novation controllers, but there system never worked properly.

Who needs ultra-fine mapping when sweeping a filter ?

Its becoming obvious by now that there are two camps. Those who play there hardware instruments in real time. And those who use a mouse to input notes. And never the twain shall meet.

Fine control is helpful if you’re trying to tune your resonance, but I’ve never really had an issue doing that from a hardware instrument, especially an analog, so I don’t quite know what BONES is talking about, as usual. Some synths with encoders do have somewhat more crude control, but most plugins don’t really give you incredibly fine control either.

[zerocrossing]

maybe... and then maybe...and maybe.., maybe..., etc.

Exactly

Somewhat.

[thecontrolcentre]

maybe... and then maybe...and maybe.., maybe..., etc.

Exactly

Somewhat.

Could be ...

[zerocrossing]

I realized what the issue of this thread is. The question asks about “investment.” Music gear is essentially terrible as an investment. I once did a calculation as to what would happen to money spent on a Model D in 1978 and the same amount of money in a regular bank collecting interest, and the bank was the clear winner. I know the OP wasn’t really talking about the potential to make a profit with their initial outlay, but it’s why I always suggest software. I assume they’re going to have to get a DAW and audio interface anyway, so that’s a wash regardless of your synth technology choice. Maybe you spend more to get more analog inputs. So, with that being more or less a wash, the software route can cost nothing and give you a lot. The hardware route will have definite costs (not including the need for extra analog inputs) and potentially give you the same(ish) result. So as an investment, the software is definitely better. Of course since actual enjoyment is not something that can be measured (I had a woman cheat on me because I couldn’t make myself spank her as hard as she wanted me to ) it makes more sense to just get your computer set up with a DAW and see what that brings. If you’re happy, then you’re done. If you feel something is missing, then try adding a hardware synth to see if that’s what’s missing.

If there’s one thing I know, it’s that you can’t really make a decision without actually getting your hands dirty. I see people doing really cool stuff in hardware modular. I started to put together a small modular myself, and I quickly realized that it doesn’t suit me. Now, I love putting together things in Reaktor Blocks or Voltage Modular. I love hardware synths. You’d think that I’d take to it right away, but I didn’t. In fact, I sort of hated it. I bought used and only lost a little bit as I resold it, but I learned a lesson.

[JCJR]

Maybe depends on the nature of the person asking advice. Maybe kvr is somewhat self-selecting for a certain nature so that other "personality types" can be somewhat ignored when offering advice or bullet point lists. Or maybe not. Tis hard to say with beginners and newbs because maybe they don't yet know "who they are" or "what they want out of it".

As gross generalization with numerous glaring exceptions, of the musicians I've known, the best musicians are not very techie. Some great musicians are also talented techies but in my experience such odds are the small statistical odds of intersection between the Venn diagram of "musicianship" with the Venn diagram of "talented technerd".

Nowadays even most non-technical musicians have learned to fumble their way thru web pages, email and facebook. But still remain much better musicians than technicians and probably always will. Unless there has been some vast genetic aptitude shift in younger generations, a giant unexplained skewing of relevant bell curves, perhaps there are the same percentages of young folk today who have larger aptitude for musicianship than nerd-mousing. Whatever that percentage happens to be in the gene pool. Dunno.

Just sayin, if advising a young budding technogeek then maybe software all the way plus some cheezy little 2 octave minikey controller is the way to go. OTOH if advising a young budding musician then a playable instrument is the way to go. The technokeek probably won't make much progress confronted with an instrument that doesn't play itself, and the budding talented musician probably won't make much prograss confronted with a daw and a dinky controller. But its hard to say because truly talented musicians can wring music out of any awful kind of gear.

The most talented guitarists can play fabulous on any old splintery warped plank strung with fence wire. He does better with the $5000 axe and prefers the $5000 axe but he doesn't NEED the $5000 axe to get the job done. Some young Mozart could probably wring beautiful music out of the most awful cheezy minikey USB controller, but would prefer to have something more expressive and playable.

I don't have opinion re "cheep software for beginners" advice. Maybe that is right-on.

However, "cheap hardware for beginners" is not good advice. Even the budding Mozarts and Segovias will learn their lessons best on at least playable axes. Maybe not top of the line pro model, but something that is playable enough for a pro to use if he had to. Nothing can discourage a beginner musician worse than having to learn on a splintery warped plank strung with fence wire, or some cheezy unresponsive keyboard, or a horn that will barely squawk or whatever.

A decently playable instrument is actually more important to the "second or third tier" musical aptitudes, folks who have some music aptitude in their souls but not overflowing with talent. Those folks will be most frustrated with f'd up unplayable instruments. The giants among men and women, truly talented, you really can't stop them regardless the obstacles. All you can do is unnecessarily slow em down in the path toward excellence.

To reiterate, tis hard to say because a young beginner might currently THINK he is a technonerd when in fact he is a musician and hasn't discovered it yet. Or the young beginner might THINK he is a musician when in fact he is a technonerd and hasn't discovered it yet.

[BONES]

A lot of people prefer to play there instruments and twiddle knobs at the same time which is obviously not possible when using a mouse.

That's what mod wheels are for.

Who needs ultra-fine mapping when sweeping a filter ?

Again, mod wheel.

Its becoming obvious by now that there are two camps. Those who play there hardware instruments in real time. And those who use a mouse to input notes. And never the twain shall meet.

I do both of those things and you're right, they are very different, with zero overlap in my world. I play my hardware synths, I program and sequence my softsynths. Two entirely separate things, I don't even record the output of my hardware. You seem to want to do both at once, which is where things start to fall over for you.

[chk071]

A lot of people prefer to play there instruments and twiddle knobs at the same time which is obviously not possible when using a mouse.

I do that all the time, actually.

[dellboy]

You seem to want to do both at once, which is where things start to fall over for you.

I play all my stuff directly from hardware to audio in real time. Keyboards - guitar - bass guitar - violin etc.

The mouse is only used for stuff like selecting patches and editing afterwards.

There was a time when I use to input stuff one note at a time, even sometimes using a hardware sequencer, but I am too impatient to use that approach anymore. I prefer my music to have that loose live feel, which is not too difficult when taking into account my playing abilities.

[BONES]

Too impatient? You must be a much better player than I am because inputting note data with a mouse is about 10 times quicker for me than playing it in and then cleaning it up. And I do all my patching from my PC, even for my hardware. If a hardware synth doesn't come with a VST editor, it likely won't last long in my set-up.

[dellboy]

Too impatient? You must be a much better player than I am because inputting note data with a mouse is about 10 times quicker for me than playing it in and then cleaning it up. And I do all my patching from my PC, even for my hardware. If a hardware synth doesn't come with a VST editor, it likely won't last long in my set-up.

I think it takes real skill to make your compositions by inputting notes into a grid or whatever.

Kudos to you.

[BONES]

It's no different writing in down on a stave, although I'd struggle with that these days. The Piano Roll is where most of my inspiration comes from. I might get a very general idea for a piece from playing around on a physical keyboard but all the magic comes from the piano roll once I start to enter it in, note by note. To be fair, it is super-easy in Orion, not as much so in either Bitwig, Cubase or Studio One, just because of the way the piano roll works in each. In Orion you can literally paint notes in and even entering things one note at a time is a single click. The difference between a single-click and double-click has a much greater effect on the flow of your ideas into the computer than you'd think, which is why I still do most of my noodling around for new song ideas in Orion.

[pekbro]

Honestly, I cant program a piano roll at all beyond drum beats or simple patterns. I have to physically play the keys to get any sort of complexity. I find it difficult to see how anyone can do it all actually, without some pretty high resolution step division. Even then

[BONES]

Well, it depends what you're used to, I suppose, because anything less than sixteenth note is beyond my ability to play in any sort of time with the sequencer. Usually I'll work out a progression on a keyboard but I'll do all the actual riffs and patterns in the piano roll. It makes it easy to pick the songs I've written, because they mostly have fairly simple running basslines. In my hardware days I'd usually step-record into the QX-7, SQD-1 or the sequencer of my M1, O1R/W or Trinity but I don't often bother with that any more. Since I got the QX-7 in 1985, I have devoted no time at all to being a better keyboard player and these days I really can't play at all any more.

[pdxindy]

It's no different writing in down on a stave, although I'd struggle with that these days. The Piano Roll is where most of my inspiration comes from. I might get a very general idea for a piece from playing around on a physical keyboard but all the magic comes from the piano roll once I start to enter it in, note by note. To be fair, it is super-easy in Orion, not as much so in either Bitwig, Cubase or Studio One, just because of the way the piano roll works in each. In Orion you can literally paint notes in and even entering things one note at a time is a single click. The difference between a single-click and double-click has a much greater effect on the flow of your ideas into the computer than you'd think, which is why I still do most of my noodling around for new song ideas in Orion.

Most of my inspiration comes from playing the keyboard. I mostly record my playing live into the piano roll. When I want to input something too complex for me to play, I use midi step input so am still playing notes in via the keyboard including velocity. I find midi step input much faster for me than placing notes via the mouse. I use the mouse for some piano roll note editing like making a duplicate of a selection of notes, etc. Not often for initial note input.

[BONES]

Mine comes as much from the sounds I am working with as anything but playing them is definitely a big part of that, too. But, as I said, it's mostly broad brush stuff that I get from playing, not the finer details, which I prefer to do using something that does that better for me. I've not tried using Studio One to write anything yet but I get the feeling it's piano roll will be terrible for that, so I'll likely fire up Orion when I'm in that mode. If Cubase, Bitwig and Studio One were my only experiences with piano rolls I would likely be the same as you but Orion's piano roll is in an entirely different league.