I am wanting to bring in a load of old Tracktion 2 songs into Waveform 11 Pro.
Each of these would be a self-contained Project/Edit. (But I may have different mixes within the same edit, but using the same audio/midi files)
I may want to make a few changes to these old edits when they are in Waveform, now that I know how to use all the old 32 bit vsts, thanks to advice given to me on this forum.
I then want to make a contemporary version of each song/edit.
This may use some of the previous audio and midi files.
I will also want to delete some of the previous audio and midi files as they are replaced by new versions in the contemporary version of the song. But I don't want any deletions of files to affect the old edit.
Reading the Waveform User Guide this section seems the most relevant
"In Waveform you can have as many Edits per Project as you want.
This gives you a great system for revision control. At key milestones in your workflow, go back to
the Project tab click Create a Copy. This copies the Edit to a new file. Rename the copy appropriately
and resume work using the new Edit. You can return to the previous state of the Project at any point
by opening an earlier Edit."
I just want to check with you experts that if I do what is described above it will create copies of all the audio/midi files and not just a Waveform project file that draws on the same audio/midi files.
I don't want to risk losing files in the creation of a new edit. Also, if I do subsequently delete audio/midi files in Edit 2 I want to know they are not deleted from Edit 1.
I hope that makes sense!
Advice Appreciated - Bringing old Tracktion Edits into Waveform and then making New Ones
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- KVRist
- 358 posts since 3 Dec, 2004
Glad you asked because there is still a major bug that needs to be pointed out again.
In theory, you should be able to save an edit under a new name and your old edits will all be safe, unaffected by any changes to the new ones.
Unfortunately this is not always the case.
If you save an edit AS, with a new name and then decide to open the previous version alongside the new one (both having edit tabs), any changes you make to the new one will affect the other one! It's a serious issue! I lost hours of work and a little bit of pride over it and now just try to keep one edit open at a time.
Make sure you backup the whole thing somewhere separate before you start. Never Save As, then open the previous edit!
The only other case you could lose files is if you use "delete selected clips and their source files" which I use all the time, but you have to set it up yourself now, and it gives you a prompt before it deletes stuff. You can do normal deleting all day long and the files will still be in the old edits.
In theory, you should be able to save an edit under a new name and your old edits will all be safe, unaffected by any changes to the new ones.
Unfortunately this is not always the case.
If you save an edit AS, with a new name and then decide to open the previous version alongside the new one (both having edit tabs), any changes you make to the new one will affect the other one! It's a serious issue! I lost hours of work and a little bit of pride over it and now just try to keep one edit open at a time.
Make sure you backup the whole thing somewhere separate before you start. Never Save As, then open the previous edit!
The only other case you could lose files is if you use "delete selected clips and their source files" which I use all the time, but you have to set it up yourself now, and it gives you a prompt before it deletes stuff. You can do normal deleting all day long and the files will still be in the old edits.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 287 posts since 15 May, 2005
Kang - thanks for letting me know about that pretty crucial problem.
It looks like the safest thing to do would be to bring in each old project and label them version 1. Then bring it in again as a separate project and label it version 2 so there is no overlap between the two project versions.
I would then have to bring in audio and midi files I might create in version 1, that I also want to use in version 2, into that separate project.
If anyone else has suggestions on how best for me to organise things I would be grateful for any advice.
It looks like the safest thing to do would be to bring in each old project and label them version 1. Then bring it in again as a separate project and label it version 2 so there is no overlap between the two project versions.
I would then have to bring in audio and midi files I might create in version 1, that I also want to use in version 2, into that separate project.
If anyone else has suggestions on how best for me to organise things I would be grateful for any advice.
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- KVRist
- 358 posts since 3 Dec, 2004
I would just do it like normal. Save edit as... then name it something different. They can all be in the same project if they are just different edit versions of the same files.
Just don't save as, then immediately reload the previous edit, it's brutal but it's easy enough to avoid. There's a good chance you wouldn't have ever done that anyways.
Also make stems of everything, wet and dry, that's the easiest way to future proof your projects.
Just don't save as, then immediately reload the previous edit, it's brutal but it's easy enough to avoid. There's a good chance you wouldn't have ever done that anyways.
Also make stems of everything, wet and dry, that's the easiest way to future proof your projects.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 287 posts since 15 May, 2005
Kang - thanks. As I mentioned I want different files in each of the edits. That's what I am concerned about if both edits are within the same project. Sorry not to know, but what is a stem?
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- KVRAF
- 4891 posts since 3 Jan, 2003 from Vancouver
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by file. It sounds to me like you might be talking about clips, which are somewhat different.21tones wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:01 pm I then want to make a contemporary version of each song/edit.
This may use some of the previous audio and midi files.
I will also want to delete some of the previous audio and midi files as they are replaced by new versions in the contemporary version of the song. But I don't want any deletions of files to affect the old edit.
MIDI clips are data stored within the edit. They're not referencing files even if they were imported from external MIDI files.
If you delete a MIDI clip in Edit 1 it will have no effect on any MIDI clips in Edit 2.
An audio clip in an edit, however, is a view of an external audio file. (I don't believe Waveform will ever include audio data in an edit in the same way it does MIDI data, but I'm not 100% sure.) So an audio clip needs that external audio file to exist. However, deleting the audio clip in an edit is just deleting the view of the audio.
If you delete an audio clip in Edit 1 it will have no effect on any audio clips in Edit 2.
IMPORTANT: If you delete an audio file that is used as a clip in an Edit, the edit will no longer be able to access the audio data.
Surely there must be consensus by now...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 287 posts since 15 May, 2005
Pough - sorry for my confusing use of terminology. By file I mean the audio file. I should have used the term clip for the way the audio appears in the edit. My real concern is losing the audio files as I have done that before!
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- KVRian
- 593 posts since 22 Oct, 2006
They are files to me too 
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- KVRist
- 358 posts since 3 Dec, 2004
I really don't think there's any need to worry, just back up them up and then have at it.
Stems are when you render each track of your songs separately (wet is with effects, dry is without) with the exact same starting point. That way you can load the tracks into any DAW and they will still line up (dry version is so you could remix, wet version is so you can get the original mix at unity gain). It's the best way to back up your projects because you'll be good to go as long as .wav files are still the standard.
Stems are when you render each track of your songs separately (wet is with effects, dry is without) with the exact same starting point. That way you can load the tracks into any DAW and they will still line up (dry version is so you could remix, wet version is so you can get the original mix at unity gain). It's the best way to back up your projects because you'll be good to go as long as .wav files are still the standard.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 287 posts since 15 May, 2005
Kang
Thanks for the explanation. I've only ever saved things as Tracktion (2) project files, which is what I am now bringing in to Waveform. Obviously, the stem approach would allow me to use each rendered track in any other DAW I might need to use.
Pough - as you explain if the underlying audio file is deleted the edit will no longer be able to access the audion data.
If the audio clip is removed from the edit (maybe to keep things tidy as it is not needed), could an audio clip of the underlying audio file be reintroduced?
Forgive my ignorance on this. I have never tried it. Previously, in trying to keep things tidy I have deleted the audio clip and underlying file, but maybe that is not such a good idea in case I might need it again
Thanks for the explanation. I've only ever saved things as Tracktion (2) project files, which is what I am now bringing in to Waveform. Obviously, the stem approach would allow me to use each rendered track in any other DAW I might need to use.
Pough - as you explain if the underlying audio file is deleted the edit will no longer be able to access the audion data.
If the audio clip is removed from the edit (maybe to keep things tidy as it is not needed), could an audio clip of the underlying audio file be reintroduced?
Forgive my ignorance on this. I have never tried it. Previously, in trying to keep things tidy I have deleted the audio clip and underlying file, but maybe that is not such a good idea in case I might need it again
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- KVRist
- 358 posts since 3 Dec, 2004
Yes you can delete audio clips all you want and still re-introduce them into the edit or any edit later. Deleting or editing in Waveform will not affect the underlying file (non-destructive editing). The exception is "delete selected clips and their source audio files" which will delete the file from your computer and it will be gone forever, no edit can access it whatsoever. It's actually quite useful for deleting obviously bad takes to save disc space.
For as long as I can remember "delete selected clips and their source audio files" was a simple right click away in Tracktion, so I suspect that is what happened in the past. It is no longer that way (it is for me since I use it in my custom menu). Even if you had a one in a million chance of hitting the key command for it, it will give you a prompt before actually deleting. Normal non-destructive deleting (hitting the delete key) gives you no prompt since it doesn't affect the file.
The problem would be using Tracktion to record files, then loosing the Tracktion EDITS, or having them become unusable due to technology updates. Then you might end up with a jumble of files that you do not know the starting points of (hence the mention of stems).
If your concern is your files. Just back them up now, then go experiment. Do Tracktion 2 edits even open in Waveform?
For as long as I can remember "delete selected clips and their source audio files" was a simple right click away in Tracktion, so I suspect that is what happened in the past. It is no longer that way (it is for me since I use it in my custom menu). Even if you had a one in a million chance of hitting the key command for it, it will give you a prompt before actually deleting. Normal non-destructive deleting (hitting the delete key) gives you no prompt since it doesn't affect the file.
The problem would be using Tracktion to record files, then loosing the Tracktion EDITS, or having them become unusable due to technology updates. Then you might end up with a jumble of files that you do not know the starting points of (hence the mention of stems).
If your concern is your files. Just back them up now, then go experiment. Do Tracktion 2 edits even open in Waveform?
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- KVRAF
- 4891 posts since 3 Jan, 2003 from Vancouver
I have opened T3 edits in Waveform. I would recommend using Waveform 9. Some things go funky with Waveform 11, like folder tracks. And in some cases the browser is empty.
Surely there must be consensus by now...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 287 posts since 15 May, 2005
I have managed to open a the first couple of T2 Project Files without any problems. They tend to import at a different bar for some reason but, so far, everything is lined up properly in the edit. Thanks to advice from Pough and others, I have got old 32 bit vsts working as well, so I can hear the edit as it was from all those years ago!
I haven't tried substantially altering anything yet, mainly just testing vsts etc.
I am doing this in Waveform 11 Pro.
I haven't tried substantially altering anything yet, mainly just testing vsts etc.
I am doing this in Waveform 11 Pro.
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- KVRAF
- 1602 posts since 9 Jan, 2018
Listening to old projects is one of the best ways to time travel, isn't it?
Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and even Deezer, whatever the hell Deezer is.
More fun at Twitter @watchfulactual
More fun at Twitter @watchfulactual
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 287 posts since 15 May, 2005
I put the query I started this thread with to Tracktion support. This was particularly given Kang's comment about losing things across edits. This is the reply
"The KVR post is correct in that Edits within a project share references to audio files so changing an audio file on disk (e.g. with another audio editor) or deleting an audio file will delete that file in all Edits it is being referenced from.
This is not a bug but intended behaviour. You can think of a Project as a collection of assets, with an Edit being one of those assets and using the Project to resolve other assets. Therefore, if you change or delete one of those assets in the Project, any other other references to that asset will be changed/removed.
If all Edits contained copies of all source material, they wouldn't really be any different to having separate projects.
The idea is that you could have some samples, e.g. a kick drum in multiple Edits and if you edit that kick drum it gets updated in all the Edits.
If you want a complete copy of an Edit, including all its source files, you should create archive the Edit and then unpack it in to a new Project.
We may add some features to streamline this workflow in the future.
I hope this helps explain things,"
So - I guess the safest thing for me to do is have my "old" and "contemporary" versions of a song, not in different edits within the same project, but as different projects.
I just thought I would let you know.
Thanks again for your comments in this thread
"The KVR post is correct in that Edits within a project share references to audio files so changing an audio file on disk (e.g. with another audio editor) or deleting an audio file will delete that file in all Edits it is being referenced from.
This is not a bug but intended behaviour. You can think of a Project as a collection of assets, with an Edit being one of those assets and using the Project to resolve other assets. Therefore, if you change or delete one of those assets in the Project, any other other references to that asset will be changed/removed.
If all Edits contained copies of all source material, they wouldn't really be any different to having separate projects.
The idea is that you could have some samples, e.g. a kick drum in multiple Edits and if you edit that kick drum it gets updated in all the Edits.
If you want a complete copy of an Edit, including all its source files, you should create archive the Edit and then unpack it in to a new Project.
We may add some features to streamline this workflow in the future.
I hope this helps explain things,"
So - I guess the safest thing for me to do is have my "old" and "contemporary" versions of a song, not in different edits within the same project, but as different projects.
I just thought I would let you know.
Thanks again for your comments in this thread