Why no DP/4 emulation?

[Ichad.c]

If, however, a reverb implementation is for a DSP processor and the machine code is accessible, that one could reverse engineer the algorithm the hard way. As long as the reverse engineering team for that algorithm isolates any code from the implementation team, it's possible to avoid copyright infringement.

Classic clean room reverse engineering like that is not really an option unless your budget is in the millions, for that you reverse engineer the ESP chip first, and rewrite it's assembler code, then prod it to figure out what it's doing, it's due to labour cost - you need somebody that understands CPU/Chip design like the back of their hand. By reverse engineer I mean, somebody "skilled in the art", looks at that impulse response and actually figures it out, little by little, for a few years - apart from the arrangement there are anything from 50 to hundreds of internal 'settings' to figure out, reverb people are a special kind of crazy.

Edit: By crazy I mean, a little obsessed. If you ever have a couple of hours to kill to read 30-odd pages, this probably explains more about reverb design than any book, and has a cool little EMT-250-ish Reverb tutorial by Casey Williams(from Bricasti). https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekzon ... lture.html

[ghettosynth]

If, however, a reverb implementation is for a DSP processor and the machine code is accessible, that one could reverse engineer the algorithm the hard way. As long as the reverse engineering team for that algorithm isolates any code from the implementation team, it's possible to avoid copyright infringement.

Classic clean room reverse engineering like that is not really an option unless your budget is in the millions, for that you reverse engineer the ESP chip first, and rewrite it's assembler code, then prob it to figure out what it's doing, it's due to labour cost - you need somebody that understands CPU/Chip design like the back of their hand. By reverse engineer I mean, somebody "skilled in the art", looks at that impulse response and actually figures it out, little by little, for a few years - apart from the arrangement there are anything from 50 to hundreds of internal 'settings' to figure out, reverb people are a special kind of crazy.

Yes certainly, but it's not like one has to start from scratch in this case.

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~dattorro/ESP2.pdf

My assumption here, in the context of my assertion, is that whatever DSP chip is being used is either reasonably well documented or is off the shelf. There is some information for what's inside the Ensoniq boxes but it's not 1-1, that is, the DP2 Gate array is not the same packaging described in the ESP2 document. Writing a disassembler for that chip is not that challenging of a proposition. Making sense of the disassembled output would take far more time.

To be clear though, I'm not claiming that it's possible specifically, or that it's a good idea, only that, given a large enough budget, it may be possible without putting chips under an electron microscope.

[ghettosynth]

Edit: By crazy I mean, a little obsessed. If you ever have a couple of hours to kill to read 30-odd pages, this probably explains more about reverb design than any book, and has a cool little EMT-250-ish Reverb tutorial by Casey Williams(from Bricasti). https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekzon ... lture.html

BTW: Thanks for the link. There's so much gold like this buried around the internet, that it's hard to find when you go searching. It doesn't help that search results are saturated with " SEO driven bullshit. So I appreciate it when someone links interesting content like this.

[Teksonik]

no idea, but I'm not claiming I sold loads to bands in a bingo hall....

Not a claim, a fact. Not a bingo hall but giant Las Vegas resorts. But I get it you don't understand what you're talking about and that's fine.

So let's recap...Someone asked why no DP/4 emulation then people jumped in speculating about market shares and what everybody or nobody wants. What's possible or not possible, legal or not legal.

None of us, none....of....us knows whether a DP/4 emulation would be possible or profitable.

So why don't we just let the OP ask his question peace ?

I for one would love to see some more emulations of Ensoniq gear. Whether or not anyone else agrees is absolutely irrelevant to me.

[Teksonik]

You're missing the point.

You're not making a valid point.....

But no worries, it seems that the DP/4 reverbs are just/mostly/sortof a lexicon 224 clone and Urs has the rest on lock, so just be patient and your dreams may come true.

Not my dreams, that would be the OP who asked why no DP/4.

Again none of us know whether a DP/4 would be possible or profitable so let's just let the man make his request and move on.

In that spirit I'm out of this thread. You boys feel free to continue with the pointless discussion.

[ghettosynth]

So why don't we just let the OP ask his question peace ?

The question is soliciting speculation. Why don't you let everyone answer in peace.

[GRUMP]

I wonder if anyone in this thread, with access to a DP/4, has A/B'd Ubiks to see if the collection plus routing meets their needs?

There's a DP4/ASR10 Phaser Programm in Nebula. Give it a try to get a feeling for the differences. And - no. You won't find someone who will generally prefer apples over peaches - and the DP4 had a quiet distintive sound that is yet unmatched as the JV2080. The DP4 is the horse I learned ob btw and still my measure.

Describe the differences. What do you think makes the DP4 phasor unmatched by existing products?

You can´t really describe vibrations unless you have a known comparison ("like an emu"). If I´d say "deeper, more exciting and somewhat supernatural" you wouldnt know better in the end. Let´s say it like this: a simple noise-hihat and the Phaser+DDL program and we were fine back then. Try the Acustica Nebula program. It gets close to my memories.

[toddle guitar]

I just thought we should summon Urs to this thread, but obviously I'm terribly late with that.

Actually, the only guy who cared to model anything Ensoniq, was the one who did it for free? SQ8L, SQ8X yeah? from old timer Siegfried Kullmann? It's free and sounds great, so what's up with the "big player with monies required" rhetoric? It's not about money, it's about passion and determination.

Doh, how I wish u-he just be pumping out synths and FX at Cherry Audio's pace. like chop, chop, chop, here we go... only possible in alternate reality, I guess.

And Cherry Audio not be pumping out anything, ever. how did the clock divider's war with them end, btw? was he victorious in the legendary sync aliasing battle?

[ghettosynth]

I just thought we should summon Urs to this thread, but obviously I'm terribly late with that.

Actually, the only guy who cared to model anything Ensoniq, was the one who did it for free? SQ8L, SQ8X yeah? from old timer Siegfried Kullmann? It's free and sounds great, so what's up with the "big player with monies required" rhetoric? It's not about money, it's about passion and determination.

That kind of enthusiast product has already been discussed. Sure, an enthusiast with motivation can probably create a workalike that sounds similar. It's unlikely to please the purists. SQ8X won't please purists.

[zerocrossing]

So why don't we just let the OP ask his question peace ?

Because this is KVR and there can NEVAH BE PEACE!

[AnX]

no idea, but I'm not claiming I sold loads to bands in a bingo hall....

Not a claim, a fact.

do you have the invoices?

[toddle guitar]

It's unlikely to please the purists. SQ8X won't please purists.

ah, the purists, yes. I've noticed, purists are often the same people who expect freeware synths or 29$ synths to bring them Oberheim Eight Voice for 20K dollars in a mint software box.

it is also the people who like living in alternate realities, where the sense of entitlement is actually a currency.

[RobGee]

Has there ever been a decent emulation of any hardware multi effects? I don’t remember seeing any... The H3000 doesn’t count for me seeing as the majority of the algorithms aren’t included.

[ghettosynth]

It's unlikely to please the purists. SQ8X won't please purists.

ah, the purists, yes. I've noticed, purists are often the same people who expect freeware synths or 29$ synths to bring them Oberheim Eight Voice for 20K dollars in a mint software box.

it is also the people who like living in alternate realities, where the sense of entitlement is actually a currency.

This is somewhat in your head. Certainly there are people that act entitled towards free plugins. However, just criticizing a free plugin because it isn't a good emulation isn't that. Those people are not necessarily arguing that they want some tool for free, they are just saying that the free tool won't meet their needs.

I read some of the criticism of the Cherry Audio synth and I think some of that was spot on. There are some basic ideas there that would make that a much better tool that it's surprising that the devs didn't pick up on.

[toddle guitar]

oh, I guess I wasn't clear enough. let me put it in simpler terms. screw the purists. especially the fake purists.

if you are a purist, then be a purist and spend ~50 thousand dollars on pure ARP 2600 and Eight Voice synthesizers. then you can be called a purist. a real purist.

but if you're a fake purist, half-purist or non-purist all the same, and you are ready to compromise in order to save your monies or whatever, then be sweetie and do the math.

lets count. 50 thousand dollars versus 58 dollars.

58 dollars for ARP 2600 and Eight Voice emulations, 29 each. and for these pitiful shekels we had to witness repeated mild seizures of a fake purist clock divider, soaking those poor cherries in his private "brown" reserve for months.

yet I'm sure he was OK to save a shekel and get something for 20 bucks, boohoo.

just be real, people. you're not going to get 101% everything included package if you're willing to cut corners in the first place.