MSF: Monophonic full retriggering (stop old note dead) for patches with multiple generators

[Annabanna]

I must be having a senior moment, because this seems like it should be very simple, but I've wasted hours now.

I just want the equivalent of hitting the mono button on a synth without legato engaged, but I can't seem to find any combination of voicing mode, restart mode, etc that just retriggers the new note without the release from the previous note ringing out on top of it like you would need for any sub/808 patch or like is default for many bass patches on other synths.

All the restart options in Retrigger mode still have the release of the previous note ringing over on top which is, of course, a dealbreaker for any sub patch. No combination in Monophonic mode seems to work either. With restart enabled, it shares the same problem of release bleed from the previous note, and without it enabled, the ADSR won't retrigger, and if you do anything more complex like add a kick sample to pair with it for the attack, the sample won't retrigger in that mode.

Seems like I could force the correct behavior in Retrigger mode by setting max voices to 1 along with kill last note option... but for some reason, the range of options for max voices only goes down to 2 rather than 1, so that doesn't seem to be an option either.

I must be missing something. I'm just looking for the most basic default monophonic behavior where the new note cuts the other one off entirely and retriggers the new note from scratch... as if it were the world's simplest synth with only one voice and no fancy options.

[Faiky]

I've a similar problem.

I use mono with glide. Normally, when the notes overlap, i.e. when gliding, the envelopes are not replayed. This should only happen if the notes don't overlap. However, the envelopes are not restarted when the release of the previous note overlaps with the new one. It should ignore the release time and just restart. Just like it is in any other synth normally.

None of the restart modes offer a solution for this.
I think the release time behaviour (no restart when release is overlapping) is the Problem in both cases.

[Held]

All the restart options in Retrigger mode still have the release of the previous note ringing over on top which is, of course, a dealbreaker for any sub patch. No combination in Monophonic mode seems to work either.

Have you tried disabling "Allow multiple monophonic voices" in "Advanced settings"? That should kill the previous note. However, you'll run into the problem described by Faiky that the envelop doesn't restart as long as the previous note is still in the decay stage.

I use mono with glide. Normally, when the notes overlap, i.e. when gliding, the envelopes are not replayed. This should only happen if the notes don't overlap. However, the envelopes are not restarted when the release of the previous note overlaps with the new one. It should ignore the release time and just restart. Just like it is in any other synth normally.

(I think you meant "This should only happen if the notes don'tdo overlap" If not, I'm confused and need clarification)

I've noticed that too. It's so weird. However, if you enable "Allow multiple monophonic voices" in advanced settings, the envelop does get retriggered even if the decay of the previous note hasn't ended. It just keeps playing which might not be the desired behavior like in Annabanna's case.

Looks like we need a third option of "Don't allow multiple monophonic voices but restart envelope if midi notes don't overlap regardless of the previous note's decay" or just "normal mode" since that's what most other synths do.

[Held]

Okay, I've experimented a bit more, and I think I've found the correct settings to mimic the "normal behavior".

In Advanced settings, set voice "Voice restart mode" to "restart"; set "Max voices" to "1" and disable "Allow multiple monophonic voices".

@Annabanna which version are you using? I'm using 14.16 and I have the option to set "Max voices" to 1.

[Faiky]

(I think you meant "This should only happen if the notes don'tdo overlap" If not, I'm confused and need clarification)

I mean with "this": The envelopes should be restart (when there's a gap between notes).

Now I found out the settings for my situation:
- Voicing Mode: Monophonic
Advance Settings:
- Allow multiple monophonic voices ON (I never noticed this setting before )
- Voice restart mode: Smooth
- Max voices: 1

[Held]

Oh, I thought "this" referred to "glide" since that's what you mentioned in the previous sentence. But I'm happy you figured it out.

[Annabanna]

Okay, I've experimented a bit more, and I think I've found the correct settings to mimic the "normal behavior".

In Advanced settings, set voice "Voice restart mode" to "restart"; set "Max voices" to "1" and disable "Allow multiple monophonic voices".

@Annabanna which version are you using? I'm using 14.16 and I have the option to set "Max voices" to 1.

That was my impression... that it can't be done given existing options without setting Max voices to 1. Unfortunately, I'm on 13 point something, and I don't have admin access to the system, so I don't control updates.

Max voices only goes down to 2, sand there's no multiple monophonic voices option.

Weird that it has all these other options, but won't let me do the most basic thing that the very first synths ever created did by default. It's not exactly esoteric either... it's the exact thing needed for most bass patches and certainly any sort of sub / 808 type patch.

[Held]

That was my impression... that it can't be done given existing options without setting Max voices to 1. Unfortunately, I'm on 13 point something, and I don't have admin access to the system, so I don't control updates.

The last version of 13 was released over a year ago and MSF was still in rather early development. So it's no surprise that essential features are missing from your version.

Weird that it has all these other options, but won't let me do the most basic thing that the very first synths ever created did by default. It's not exactly esoteric either... it's the exact thing needed for most bass patches and certainly any sort of sub / 808 type patch.

Vojtech obviously agrees and implemented it. At this point, the person in charge of your system is to blame, and you should ask for an update.

[Annabanna]

Vojtech obviously agrees and implemented it. At this point, the person in charge of your system is to blame, and you should ask for an update.

Agreed. I'll add it to the list of overdue updates.

[HorusAnd]

In MSubLab, if multiple notes are played at the exact same time, it'll play them polyphonic even though the settings are 'Monophonic', 'Max Voices = 1', 'Max Voices Per Note = 1', 'Voice Restart Mode = Restart", "Allow Multiple Monophonic Voices = Disabled". A really short gap, like 30ms between notes, it'll play mono / legato as expected. It's something I can't figure out... It looks like y'all have found a solution but I do think something else is going on. Idk, maybe not

[Held]

Did you try "restart(brutal)" According to the help, the normal "restart" will allow each not to finish instead of killing it immediately.

Maybe there's some weird interaction between 'Voice restart mode' and 'Max voices'.

Edit: I've done some more experiments and I noticed that that setting 'Voice restart mode' to 'restart(brutal) and enabling 'Mono toggle' doesn't play the decay phase, even if no other midi note is being played.

I think the voicing section might have some bugs or maybe it just needs better documentation.

[Annabanna]

Did you try "restart(brutal)" According to the help, the normal "restart" will allow each not to finish instead of killing it immediately.

Maybe there's some weird interaction between 'Voice restart mode' and 'Max voices'.

Edit: I've done some more experiments and I noticed that that setting 'Voice restart mode' to 'restart(brutal) and enabling 'Mono toggle' doesn't play the decay phase, even if no other midi note is being played.

I think the voicing section might have some bugs or maybe it just needs better documentation.

At best, it's confusing. Also "percussive" doesn't really mean what one might assume... and also doesn't behave like a percussive instrument. By switching to the release phase once the note off is received, it's really just reverting to what normal behavior is on many synths. A percussive sound, by contrast, wouldn't care how long the note is held since all the sound is generated from the initial hit, so one might naturally assume that it meant that instead.

Partly, the confusion is just linguistic, and due to using words like "monophonic" in ways that contradict their use in other synths, but partly it's also due to overlapping modes where the most basic functions are missing or perhaps now with updates just difficult to figure out how to implement.

I would think a more elegant, simpler, and more flexible solution than the existing release modes would be something along the lines of a slider that controls the % of release time already specified in the ADSR to use when notes overlap in monophonic or trigger mode. That way, nothing else changes, various release modes are no longer necessary, and instead of being stuck with fixed increments that may or may not work, one can simply use the slider to determine that overlapping notes get anywhere from 0% to 100% of the release time already specified and dial it in perfectly for each patch. It goes from being vaguely "brutal" or "smooth" to being exactly as brutal or smooth as the user requires for that patch. It may be more complicated than that, but I doubt it. At most, some basic scripting to allow it to stop at the next zero crossing if desired should wrap it all up in a tidy bow.

[Held]

I would think a more elegant, simpler, and more flexible solution than the existing release modes would be something along the lines of a slider that controls the % of release time already specified in the ADSR to use when notes overlap in monophonic or trigger mode. That way, nothing else changes, various release modes are no longer necessary, and instead of being stuck with fixed increments that may or may not work, one can simply use the slider to determine that overlapping notes get anywhere from 0% to 100% of the release time already specified and dial it in perfectly for each patch. It goes from being vaguely "brutal" or "smooth" to being exactly as brutal or smooth as the user requires for that patch. It may be more complicated than that, but I doubt it. At most, some basic scripting to allow it to stop at the next zero crossing if desired should wrap it all up in a tidy bow.

I think that's a great idea, although I'm not sure how well it would work in practice. But it would certainly be worth trying.

I hope this gets sorted and we won't be stuck with the current situation in the name of backwards compatibility.