Roland Supersaw - any idea how the original was done?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
KVRAF
6323 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland

Post Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:49 am

synthpark wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:31 am
If you were right, TZFM would go out of tune when modulating a sine with a square wave which shifts it x Hz up and down (I know this isn't exactly the same). I would rather say the mean must be 0.
Pitch perception is logarithmic. In fact, when we talk about "pitch" as opposed to "frequency" it is usually understood that pitch is the logarithm of the "frequency. These coefficients are frequency multipliers, so their logarithms are the pitch offests (ie. they are not offsets in linear frequency). So the average in log-domain should be 0, which translates to geometric mean of 1.

ps. Whether the center of a set of detuned components is perceived exactly at the geometric mean is another thing, but it's certainly a better approximation than the arithmetic mean.
Preferred pronouns would be "it/it" because according to this country, I'm a piece of human trash.

KVRist
36 posts since 7 Sep, 2018

Post Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:08 am

mystran wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:49 am

ps. Whether the center of a set of detuned components is perceived exactly at the geometric mean is another thing, but it's certainly a better approximation than the arithmetic mean.
Lets say it like that. Since the components are additive, not like FM, you are probably right, because when you use two detuned oscillators of equal level, you shift by cents equally up and down, in the logarithmic domain indeed. And more are just an extension. The geometric mean is about 3.5 cents apart from center, but due to the strong detuning effect negligible. That means I could actually undo my "correction". How I came to this: exponential FM detunes as you increase the modulator frequency, because the modulation happens too fast for the ear and the mean pitch is not perceived as the integral in the logarithm domain, but rather in the linear domain.

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KVRAF
2538 posts since 4 Sep, 2006 from 127.0.0.1

Post Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:19 am

the coefficients from that table are from this post: viewtopic.php?p=6996036#p6996036

it has some more information how they're intended to be used

what perhaps isn't very clear is how i got them
i used a wav file with the supersaw oscillator (assuming the detune parameter was set to max)
i panned this wav file to the left, and played it in a loop (a long enough one so that the poor loop doesn't matter)
then, in SynthEdit i added 7 sawtooths with some math and sliders, panned all that to the right
i used my realtime spectrograph then to watch what's going on and tuned my sawtooths until they visually match the ones on the left channel as close as possible

i don't have a screenshot from then, but here's how the spectrograph looks like otherwise:
Image
it's made of bandpass filters and the distribution can be linear or log, and i can zoom-in additionally (on this picture there's no zoom, you see the whole range)

as for whether some sawtooths in the supersaw are inverted - no, all sawtooths are with the same polarity, you can see their "reset" transient all going in the same direction and you can even count that they are 7
It doesn't matter how it sounds..
..as long as it has BASS and it's LOUD!

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KVRer
12 posts since 13 Apr, 2021 from Paris, France

Post Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:50 pm

Hello all,
The JP-BOOO 👻 plugin for KORG synthesizers is arguably the closest sounding emulation of the SuperSaw. The website gives a detailed explanation of the synthesis process: https://edouard.digital/jp-booo/

KVRist
36 posts since 7 Sep, 2018

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 am

Edouard Digital wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:50 pm
Hello all,
The JP-BOOO 👻 plugin for KORG synthesizers is arguably the closest sounding emulation of the SuperSaw. The website gives a detailed explanation of the synthesis process: https://edouard.digital/jp-booo/
Maybe ... if that's what you are going for. For myself, I am not interested in copying the original aliasing, no fan of aliasing at all :) But I understand the motivation.

By the way, the highpass in the path is not only to suppress aliasing, but also the rather annoying phasing of the fundamental components. But I found that going with a fixed highpass frequency is good enough (if aliasing if not even created) as that problem exists mostly for low frequencies.

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KVRAF
21529 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am

"Later, other manufacturers and virtual instrument developers have tried to create a similar oscillator, like the Virus TI HyperSaw or the u-he Diva Multisaw, but the overall consensus is that they’re even further from the original and that the Super Saw remains unmatched… "

What a load of bull. :) Diva's supersaw is matching the OG pretty darn well.

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:14 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am
What a load of bull. :) Diva's supersaw is matching the OG pretty darn well.
Maybe he's accidentally using the "high quality" mode in Diva's digital osc which removes the aliasing? We added that in case our users were too baffled of the digital artefacts in a synth that's otherwise taking a lot of pride in sounding "not digital".

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KVRAF
21529 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:46 am

That's my assumption too, then again that button is not active by default...?

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KVRer
12 posts since 13 Apr, 2021 from Paris, France

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:26 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am
What a load of bull. :)
I created an account on this forum no more than a month ago, and later discovered there was a debate whether it was becoming more developer friendly. Now I understand why.

No one is forced to buy my plugin and people are welcome to disagree and contradict me. However I see no good reason to be replied to with a derogatory comment, and I would expect that any critic be based on experience, not insults.

No matter how long you have been on the forum, it would have been more appropriate to listen to the audio demo and compare it with other emulations and the JP-8000/8080 before posting your "opinion".

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KVRer
12 posts since 13 Apr, 2021 from Paris, France

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:35 pm

Urs wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:14 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am
What a load of bull. :) Diva's supersaw is matching the OG pretty darn well.
Maybe he's accidentally using the "high quality" mode in Diva's digital osc which removes the aliasing? We added that in case our users were too baffled of the digital artefacts in a synth that's otherwise taking a lot of pride in sounding "not digital".
Hello Urs,
I was definitely not using the HQ mode that's off by default. I tested the Multisaw in Diva both using the JP-8000 SuperSaw preset, and starting from the init patch, opening the filter, and soloing the first oscillator.

I'm not competing directly with either the Virus TI HyperSaw or the u-he Diva Multisaw, since we offer an oscillator plugin for KORG synthesizers, while they're included in complete synthesizer voices, and this claim means no disrespect as I am myself a client and user of u-he plugins, as a producer, and I think they're great.

However I felt confident about this claim based on feedback and comparison of the sound and parameter behavior of the existing emulations I had access to. This comes from our clients:
"I have an Access Virus TI2 with its well-known 'Hypersaw' oscillator, and I have to say that the JP-BOOO treads all over it”
“just wanted to thank you for your attention to detail in replicating the SuperSaw. yours is better than the System-1 or System-8 versions to my ears.”

As to the Multisaw, I think it comes quite close, yet even with HQ off there are audible differences. After all it's not a JP-8000 emulation plugin, while I on the other hand was very much focused on strictly emulating the Super Saw, its bright raw character and its peculiarities.

Since I've been accused of lying (after just my 7th post on this forum!), I just uploaded a test bench (mix at about half and a detune ramp from min to max), which makes it easy to switch between the JP-8080, JP-BOOO and Diva, for everyone to make their own judgement.

In the very start the Multisaw remains static (the Super Saw always has a little dephasing even at zero detune) and in the second half it has an audibly warmer and noisier sound.
https://soundcloud.com/edouard-digital/ ... test-bench

KVRAF
6323 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:04 pm

I think it's safe to say that the "overall consensus" is that aliasing sounds bad. Sure, there's those about 7 people who diagree, but 7 out of 6 billion is not "overall consensus."

ps. If you look at what synths have been the most popular (especially in the genres where supersaws are a thing) you'll realize that just about every single one of those uses "alias free" as a marketing point. Go figure.
Preferred pronouns would be "it/it" because according to this country, I'm a piece of human trash.

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KVRer
12 posts since 13 Apr, 2021 from Paris, France

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:45 pm

mystran wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:04 pm
I think it's safe to say that the "overall consensus" is that aliasing sounds bad. Sure, there's those about 7 people who diagree, but 7 out of 6 billion is not "overall consensus."

ps. If you look at what synths have been the most popular (especially in the genres where supersaws are a thing) you'll realize that just about every single one of those uses "alias free" as a marketing point. Go figure.
This has nothing to do with my statement, which was about the closeness of the emulation of this particular waveform, not about people wanting aliasing everywhere. Obviously aliasing is not something that is wanted in all circumstances, and antialiasing is a required feature for modern mainstream synths. However, as a developer, producer and collector of instruments, I enjoy the character of aliasing on earlier digital instruments, and I always make a point to maintain it especially when I am offering an emulation. This is what people are looking for in hardware synths, an imperfect vibe. There's not point for me in releasing yet another modern VA plugin with a sanitized sound. I let people decide based on their ears and their tastes. The rest is rhetorics.

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:14 pm

So basically, you're bluntly using our brand names to advertise your own work. I don't think comparative advertisement is forbidden per sé, but don't expect anyone to think of it as a classy move.

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Urs
u-he
25635 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 pm

As for your criticism of our implementation, how are you even gonna judge it sound-wise? - There's no way in Diva to bypass the filters and VCAs. Are you not aware that the filters and VCAs always colour the oscillator sound and that, yes, you can't really compare it unless you somehow bypass the JP8000 filter *and* run it through, say, an analogue ladder filter?

Furthermore, the Supersaw isn't static at a detune of zero? Maybe your JP8000 has a CTRL-1 slider in need of service? I'm fairly certain there was absolutely no phase movement on ours when the slider was in the zero position. Sure, I could be wrong, but how is that even a considerable flaw?

KVRAF
1781 posts since 20 Oct, 2014

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:00 pm

v1o wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:44 pm
The JP-8000 is still the best even compared to a mighty Moog One.

https://youtu.be/TFwFdGzHmG0?t=89
I think supersaw mostly is about the curve of pitch in the detuning, the volume relations and most importantly, the start phase, not about money. Random is not always random, can be also "continuous phase" or so. The JP-8000 also seems to be very noisy, so adding bandpassed noise could make it sound more like the JP-8000. I've seen that the Dune 2 synth has nice controls here (but lacks of detailed phase control then). So I would conclude, if you want to do the most flexible supersaw osc, add the following:

- amount of spreading
- volume relation dry vs. wet
- stereo spead
- flexible curve from log to lin to exp for the pitch spreading, bipolar
- flexible curve from log to lin to exp for the volumes of the voices, bipolar
- flexible curve from log to lin to exp for the stereo spread, bipolar
- various phase variations: maybe free-running, random, restarting, restarting (dry) + random (wet), etc.

That said, I really like the supersaw sound of Synthmaster One and Hive (though I wish that Hive had a hidden parameter "detune curve" and "width curve" or so).

Here is a preset for Synthmaster One:
supersaw jp8000.smpr.zip
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Last edited by Hanz Meyzer on Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:16 am, edited 5 times in total.

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