Chord progressions and song structure

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 5:52 am

shawshawraw wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:32 am
Are you sure? Wonderwall stays strictly in the scale notes.
As I perceive it, both songs use a II-IV-I-V chord progression, the melody comes down to the same (key) notes. Although there is a slight difference in interpretation, the lines are basically the same.

KVRist
69 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu May 13, 2021 6:01 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:52 am
As I perceive it, both songs use a II-IV-I-V chord progression, the melody comes down to the same (key) notes. Although there is a slight difference in interpretation, the lines are basically the same.
I heard

Em | G | D | E (4th time F# to go back to Bm)

in the Catapult song. The 4th bars are modulating.

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 6:30 am

shawshawraw wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:01 am
excuse me please wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:52 am
As I perceive it, both songs use a II-IV-I-V chord progression, the melody comes down to the same (key) notes. Although there is a slight difference in interpretation, the lines are basically the same.
I heard

Em | G | D | E (4th time F# to go back to Bm)

in the Catapult song. The 4th bars are modulating.
But the fourth bar of the melody goes: | G - F# E - - - - |
That would turn the fourth chord to a E7#9 (Hendrix') chord; as the G is a #9 of the E7 chord.

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 7:33 am

PS try this trick to figure out how the melody works with the chords as it comes to the harmony of the song (in chords):

| Em - - - ÷ | G - - - ÷ | D - - - ÷ | G - D A ÷ |

- eight note
÷ 4x eight note (just to be sure of the time indication).

Notice that the melody of the fourth bar G F# E and the chords G D A. The melody goes down, the chords go up in 5ths, that's why it is so hard to follow :)

Took me ages to figure out by myself.

KVRist
69 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu May 13, 2021 7:40 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:30 am

But the fourth bar of the melody goes: | G - F# E - - - - |
That would turn the fourth chord to a E7#9 (Hendrix') chord; as the G is a #9 of the E7 chord.
You're right!!!

Listened again, this should be the go:

E7 (can't really tell G# or G; so it's E7 haha) | G6 | D | A7
E7 | G6 | D | B7
E7 | G6 | D | A7
E7 | G6 | D | F#7

KVRist
69 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu May 13, 2021 7:55 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:33 am
Notice that the melody of the fourth bar G F# E and the chords G D A. The melody goes down, the chords go up in 5ths, that's why it is so hard to follow :)
I don't think the chords are going up. It'd be a super drastic motion packed in 3 consecutive beats.

I'm now understanding the progression as a blues thing, E7=I7 and A7=IV7 (the G in melody of "show" is the b3 note thus the color - guess it's also where I confused as b3=#9). A super cool one that I'm not quite used to!
Last edited by shawshawraw on Thu May 13, 2021 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 8:11 am

Another trick (up in fifths):

G D A E B F#
B F# C# G# D# A#

As you can see the missing notes are the F and C, B and F# are double.

C G D A E B
E B F# C# G# D# (Bb/F are missing, E/B double)

But now down (in fourths):

F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
A D G C F Bb (E/B are missing, Bb/F double)

Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb
D G C F Bb Eb (A/E are missing, Eb/Bb double)

Mind boggling, innit? ;)

NB these are only the major chords. The minor chords... I'd rather not start about it ;)

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 8:17 am

PS the chords are based on the circle of fifths. I tried to explain the up and down principle behind harmony. In that sense I mentioned G D A go up.

Giddy up go, so to speak :clown:

KVRist
69 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am

Oh god, my mind never gets the circle of 5ths. I don't hear it that way... a little too scientific! :D (I know it's scientifically correct, though!)

User avatar
KVRAF
4434 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Post Thu May 13, 2021 8:42 am

shawshawraw wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:34 am
Oh god, my mind never gets the circle of 5ths. I don't hear it that way... a little too scientific! :D (I know it's scientifically correct, though!)
If that feels ”scientific” (or should you say theoretical) to you, you shouldn’t even look at the serialism, not to mention post-serialism.

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 8:47 am

I don't get it either, but let's say I am on my way after 4 decades of juggling with structure, notes, harmony, you name it lol

However, I'm sure we are talking about different compositions as it comes to the compared songs. It's all very subtle, the possibilities are endless. If you find another catchy progression and turn it to the House of the Rising Sun... (which starts with the same chords) well, I think you get my drift haha

The fact that Oasis could progress from the catchy Catapult progression says enough. Btw both songs obviously refer strongly to the Beatles. These guys knew what they were doing, just saying :)

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 8:50 am

This is a good channel for study:

https://m.youtube.com/c/DavidBennettPiano/videos

User avatar
KVRian
1394 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Post Thu May 13, 2021 9:06 am

Try to figure out the chords of this song.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DEbi_YjpA-Y

Another one:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug

KVRist
69 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu May 13, 2021 9:38 am

Harry_HH wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:42 am
If that feels ”scientific” (or should you say theoretical) to you, you shouldn’t even look at the serialism, not to mention post-serialism.
Haha, sayin' that "scientific" because I really don't hear that way.

An example, Beatles 'All you need is love'. Chords are G A7 | D. If I did hear "I V/V | V", I'd happily use the circle of 5ths. But I can't. I'm always hearing "I II | V", where the #4 paints the color of intention, which I can use and copy over. The ears only have memory and no eyes, so until reaching the V, you can't tell II is V/V. (Like, what if it's G A7 | C ?)

But of course, everybody hears things differently! I'm not yet keen to look at serialism...

KVRist
69 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu May 13, 2021 9:51 am

excuse me please wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:06 am
Try to figure out the chords of this song.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DEbi_YjpA-Y

Another one:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug
Haha, I have absolute pitch so I cheat! My rough go:

Killing me soft
Fm7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Ab
Fm7 | Bb7/D | Eb | Db
Ab | Db | Gb | F

Verses are iim7 V9 then I or vi etc.

Dock of the bay
G | B7 | C | A7
G | B7 | C | A7
G | EMaj9 (to check further) | G | EMaj9
G | A7 | G | D

G D | C7 | G D | C7
G D | C G | F | D

Return to “Music Theory”