Bitwig Studio 4 announced (+beta available)!

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRAF
1902 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:11 am

pc999 wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:57 am
A Push 3 standalone that can export ALS and open on the Bitwig 4, given the amount it can import would be the second-best thing besides a Bitwig standalone.
ableton is a DAW, not a 'groovebox' like Maschine, although Maschine closes the gap, but not completely. and the standalone version; the maschine+, you need very powerfull hardware to run ableton standalone. but it is a DAW..

and working with different DAW's, in collabs, different third party plugings, the build-in plugins/devices, etc. it will never, never??, will work that perfect.

even when you both have bitwig studio, and you use a third party plugin, you still need to bounce/freeze that channel. it works, but still...
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

KVRian
647 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:47 am

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:38 am
SLiC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:02 am
Ultimately the 'Grid' has the advantage of being simple and well integrated. It is however very limited at the moment (audio only, no real user interfaces, no ability to add low level code to make your own modules) and is no where near as powerful as M4L.
That is like saying Eurorack is very limited cause you cannot take a functional control off of one module and put it on another.

In the years I was using Live, I never once successfully made a M4L device. It's arcane coding sh!t that I have no interest in spending my time on.

By comparison, within 10 minutes of trying the Grid, I was making useful synth sounds. From the perspective of being useful to me and quickly getting results I am happy with, the Grid is great and M4L isn't.

If I want a large user library full of lots of FX and Sound generators, I have the Reaktor user Library at hand.
I like M4L in theory but in practice it's not something I want to deal with. I'm not that big of a fan of the Grid either but even my dumb pea brain can wrap my head around it and have even created a few cool synths. The implementation of the Grid could be better. We need custom UIs imo like M4L. Right now exposing parameters for Grid devices is too messy, you have to create a whole bunch of modulators etc and it just looks ugly. In that regard M4L is "cleaner" as it looks like a native device to Ableton. Hopefully Bitwig will address that at some point as well as add a midi grid.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

KVRAF
7665 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:24 am

You don't have to code in MAX, it has BEAP so anyone can make synths and fx just with connection modules like the Grid...but then if you want a bit more you can 'also' add MAX patches and even code (like some just ported MI Clouds open source code in to a free MAX module!). As you say, The Grid doesn't have a GUI maker (presentation mode) or Midi etc yet...it is a lovely design and easy to use, but I some people may find it someone limited.

When I first used the grid it reminded me of BEAP!

https://youtu.be/lm8cvTywtVI
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
19413 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:58 am

apoclypse wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:47 am
I like M4L in theory but in practice it's not something I want to deal with. I'm not that big of a fan of the Grid either but even my dumb pea brain can wrap my head around it and have even created a few cool synths. The implementation of the Grid could be better. We need custom UIs imo like M4L. Right now exposing parameters for Grid devices is too messy, you have to create a whole bunch of modulators etc and it just looks ugly. In that regard M4L is "cleaner" as it looks like a native device to Ableton. Hopefully Bitwig will address that at some point as well as add a midi grid.
I have a 'path of least resistance' approach to these things - How can I use this tool in an enjoyable and creative way as it is today...

So I don't think of my Grid constructs as devices. I think of them as presets in what is an excellent MPE synth. I use at most 25% of the Grid modules. My constructs are fairly simple and I mainly make synths and drums. I can for example, combine samples and wavetables, plus a sub osc and then have fine control over MPE expression. I have a number of preset templates which have common parameters mapped to the 8 default 'macros'. The 8 parameters of the default remote control page is enough for my fairly simple use cases.

In this way, I can create new sounds nearly as fast as a regular hardwired (non-modular) VST synth except with modular flexibility.

This is one of the things I like about the Grid. It invites simple use without having to be an expert or coder. (unlike M4L which would be 4+ months of study to make a basic synth).

I also look forward to a Midi Grid and to user created GUI's... but in the meanwhile I can make lots of use of the Grid as is. I don't get frustrated with it cause I don't try to do things it is not well suited for yet.

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KVRAF
19413 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 am

SLiC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:24 am
You don't have to code in MAX, it has BEAP so anyone can make synths and fx just with connection modules like the Grid...
You are really reaching now... BEAP doesn't come remotely close to the capability plus ease and fluid workflow of the Grid.

The Grid has a full stereo signal path (BEAP is mainly a mono signal path). The Grid is fully integrated with the Bitwig modulation system. It handles polyphony beautifully, has voice stacking, full MPE support, pre-cords, etc. I can add an Env in the Grid, activate the mod arrow and quickly drag say 7 different parameters to modulate them. No wires or attenuator modules needed. If I want 2 of those target depths to be controlled by velocity, that also takes no wires and a single modulator.

Go ahead and make an electric piano patch in BEAP with 24 voices of polyphony, voice stacking of 3, individual left/right offset of Osc's and Filters for some stereo movement. Then add per voice aftertouch for expressive playing. Good luck! :hihi:

KVRAF
7665 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:19 am

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 am
You are really reaching now... BEAP doesn't come remotely close to the capability plus ease and fluid workflow of the Grid.
I don't have to reach, I am not trying to win an argument, I use both for different reasons...I was just pointing out you don't need to 'program' to make a synth in MAX. BEAP is just a fun free add in to get people going...

Lets be honest though, MAX vastly exceeds the 'capability' of the GRID in just about department other than ease of use (although you could say that's the important one!)
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 am

The Grid has a full stereo signal path (BEAP is mainly a mono signal path). The Grid is fully integrated with the Bitwig modulation system. It handles polyphony beautifully, has voice stacking, full MPE support, pre-cords, etc. I can add an Env in the Grid, activate the mod arrow and quickly drag say 7 different parameters to modulate them. No wires or attenuator modules needed. If I want 2 of those target depths to be controlled by velocity, that also takes no wires and a single modulator.
Stereo signal path is so last year :wink: MAX has dedicated 'MC Cable' carrying up to unlimited audio chancels and dedicated MPE inputs/outputs in one cable or 1 device which is why you are seeing many MPE MAX devices now.
You can host and control VST and AU instruments in MAX as well, so with the new MC Cable
you can even load multiple copies of a non MPE VST plug-in within a MAX patch and build your own MPE version of the instrument!

I tried to get this to run from 50mins as I know you are interested in MPE stuff, the whole video is actually quite entertaining just for 'general interest' like a Xmas Physics Lecture!

https://youtu.be/Y4YLy7kqcr8

The patches are really need that hard given that 100's of channels of audio being influenced by MPE are evoked...and can be downloaded ;-)

Anyway- my last 'MAX is Cool' post, its a loosing battle on a Bigwig thread :D I think the Grid is very cool 'as well' but I was 'really' expecting Midi Grid in '4', so...
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KVRAF
19413 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:53 am

SLiC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:19 am
Stereo signal path is so last year
Which makes BEAP so last decade as it hasn't even made it to stereo yet :hihi:

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KVRAF
19413 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:01 am

SLiC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:19 am
You can host and control VST and AU instruments in MAX as well, so with the new MC Cable
you can even load multiple copies of a non MPE VST plug-in within a MAX patch and build your own MPE version of the instrument!

I tried to get this to run from 50mins as I know you are interested in MPE stuff, the whole video is actually quite entertaining just for 'general interest' like a Xmas Physics Lecture!
I watched from minute 50...

You realize that is trivial to do in Bitwig? Don't even need the Grid... just use the Selector devices. No need for an arcane environment like Max. Easy in Bitwig for anyone to do who doesn't know how to or want to wire anything. And the beauty of the Selector devices is that any unused layers don't take cpu.

KVRAF
7665 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:54 am

Ahh, the one they copied Ableton's Chain Selector (may as well, they copied the rack!) :wink:

I don't use Grid much, I must admit wasn't aware it could send 100s of different audio signals down one cable and change them all differently with one command, maybe I should dig deeper...
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KVRAF
19413 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:08 am

SLiC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:54 am
Ahh, the one they copied Ableton's Chain Selector (may as well, they copied the rack!) :wink:
Yeah, that one... except that they improved upon it and made it actually useful.

KVRAF
7665 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:45 am

They should copy and improve on the looper...its another thing I use a lot as a guitarist (it replaced my OT in the end)
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KVRAF
5836 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:43 am

SLiC wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:19 am
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 am
You are really reaching now... BEAP doesn't come remotely close to the capability plus ease and fluid workflow of the Grid.
I don't have to reach, I am not trying to win an argument, I use both for different reasons...I was just pointing out you don't need to 'program' to make a synth in MAX. BEAP is just a fun free add in to get people going...

Lets be honest though, MAX vastly exceeds the 'capability' of the GRID in just about department other than ease of use (although you could say that's the important one!)
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 am

The Grid has a full stereo signal path (BEAP is mainly a mono signal path). The Grid is fully integrated with the Bitwig modulation system. It handles polyphony beautifully, has voice stacking, full MPE support, pre-cords, etc. I can add an Env in the Grid, activate the mod arrow and quickly drag say 7 different parameters to modulate them. No wires or attenuator modules needed. If I want 2 of those target depths to be controlled by velocity, that also takes no wires and a single modulator.
Stereo signal path is so last year :wink: MAX has dedicated 'MC Cable' carrying up to unlimited audio chancels and dedicated MPE inputs/outputs in one cable or 1 device which is why you are seeing many MPE MAX devices now.
You can host and control VST and AU instruments in MAX as well, so with the new MC Cable
you can even load multiple copies of a non MPE VST plug-in within a MAX patch and build your own MPE version of the instrument!

I tried to get this to run from 50mins as I know you are interested in MPE stuff, the whole video is actually quite entertaining just for 'general interest' like a Xmas Physics Lecture!

https://youtu.be/Y4YLy7kqcr8

The patches are really need that hard given that 100's of channels of audio being influenced by MPE are evoked...and can be downloaded ;-)

Anyway- my last 'MAX is Cool' post, its a loosing battle on a Bigwig thread :D I think the Grid is very cool 'as well' but I was 'really' expecting Midi Grid in '4', so...
I have to chime in to any Max vs. Grid discussion. And I have to agree to both positions, as I am experienced in Max for more than a quarter century and I do love the Grid.
First, compared to Max the Grid is VERY limited. I come to brick walls all the time when I patch in the Grid, my mind is too open for that, I always try to implement ideas that would be easy in Max.
BUT! I think the Grid is by magnitudes more inspiring and fast for some tasks. Some might remember my implementation of tropical additive synthesis after reading a paper about it. It took me maybe one hour to get a working concept I could play expressively with my LinnStrument. In Max I would have needed way more time and I am more experienced in Max than in the Grid (well the Grid is simpler so you learn fast…)
Some very simple tasks are close to impossible to do in the Grid. (One is MSEG btw…). Any a bit more complex patch would be a nightmare in the Grid for the lack of encapsulation.
I had multichannel signals in Max long, long before Max 8. I think since Max 5 actually, but it was a hack which might not be supported in the future anymore.
To create a polyphonic instrument in Max is - lets put it short - complicated. In the Grid its just changing a number. But the options and the freedom you get with that poly~ object in Max is far more open. You could for example let each voice behave completely differently. Ok in Bitwig you could incorporate an instrument selector and other tricks, but then it isn’t easier either…

KVRAF
7665 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:05 am

Yes, I agree totally, they are two different things...the Grid is brand new and is a bit like an extension of the modulation system, opening things up and allowing fast but deep customisation. It is very elegant and well implemented....over time I am sure it will develop into a far more useful general toolkit...adding midi and some form of GUI maker will be the game changers....but that may be some time away.

Max is a visual programming language that has been around for over 30 years!, it can go as deep as you need, you can build 'modules' to patch that would need Bigwig Developers to create and add to the Grid in an update. MAX can also host VSTs, program midi, video and even hardware. MAX can also build custom GUI's and even build stand alone apps anyone can run, so it is made for sharing and has many thousands of well document free patches to learn from and some really good books (I am currently reading 'Electronic Music and Sound Design - Theory and Practice with Max 8 - Volume 1'. I am hoping I get Volume 2 for Fathers Day on Sunday :D )

PS- as MAX hosts code it also opens up other advantages even for people like me who don't go that deep, for example, someone has ported over all the open source MI Modules (elements, clouds, plaits, rings, tides etc, even the parasites firmware's) and put them in MAX Modules with nice GUI's so they are native to Live!
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KVRAF
19413 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:24 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:43 am
I have to chime in to any Max vs. Grid discussion. And I have to agree to both positions, as I am experienced in Max for more than a quarter century and I do love the Grid.
You list the positive attributes of Max... but the thing is, I'm never going experience them... ever. The price to pay for even the simplest stuff is too high. I am never going to learn it so as far as doing anything myself, M4L is 100% useless.

From my perspective, the 2 are so different that the comparison is silly. I say I like a synth and someone replies but that synth is so limited compared to coding your own in C++. In theory yeah, but it is still basically a nonsense reply. Max vs Reaktor, now that would at least be a comparison of similar environments.

KVRAF
7665 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:29 am

Yup- if you don't want use MAX or use anything anyone else has ever made in MAX, then it is definitely 100% useless!
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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