Vendors allowing license transfers

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KVRAF
2722 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:58 pm

I wonder if Toontrack’s «administrative fee» is even legal in the EU (Toontrack is a Swedish company).

Maybe we are seeing a preparation to move to a subscription model?
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

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KVRist
439 posts since 18 Jan, 2013 from Canada

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:52 am

I own a lot of Toontrack stuff and I have all the BFD stuff. FXpansion would charge $50 for each license transfer. Now THAT kills the second hand market…

In all fairness though, I got back into Toontrack after I started looking for an alternative to BFD. I bought all the SDX I could 2nd hand thinking I could sell them for the same price I paid them if I don’t like them. Guess that plan backfired lol

KVRist
103 posts since 24 Nov, 2010 from New York

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:23 am

EINZI wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:56 pm
I was on the other end of this with Skiltrip. It's really unfortunate that Toontrack has added a transfer fee. It's still the usual verbiage without any associated costs. I reached out since none of this is published on their website. Their support team advised they began charging 6/24/2021 for license transfers. I responded stating this kills second hand buying/selling of many of their products... no response at all.

This move makes me second guess buying any more Toontrack products, especially midi or EZMix.
The biggest hit for me is the security of, an example: "If I end up not liking this EZX, at least I can flip it and get a bit of the money back". Now it's basically no return, no resale, unless getting back $10 seems worth it. I did write them asking if it's $15 per license or $15 per transaction. No response yet.
This wouldn't hurt too bad selling bundles, but people usually don't want bundles, because it's rare they want multiple items, even rarer that they want exactly everything you put in your bundle. Oh well. Fortunately, I kind of have everything I need from Toontrack at the moment.

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KVRAF
4289 posts since 12 Jan, 2018

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:43 am

skiltrip wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:23 am
EINZI wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:56 pm
I was on the other end of this with Skiltrip. It's really unfortunate that Toontrack has added a transfer fee. It's still the usual verbiage without any associated costs. I reached out since none of this is published on their website. Their support team advised they began charging 6/24/2021 for license transfers. I responded stating this kills second hand buying/selling of many of their products... no response at all.

This move makes me second guess buying any more Toontrack products, especially midi or EZMix.
The biggest hit for me is the security of, an example: "If I end up not liking this EZX, at least I can flip it and get a bit of the money back". Now it's basically no return, no resale, unless getting back $10 seems worth it. I did write them asking if it's $15 per license or $15 per transaction. No response yet.
This wouldn't hurt too bad selling bundles, but people usually don't want bundles, because it's rare they want multiple items, even rarer that they want exactly everything you put in your bundle. Oh well. Fortunately, I kind of have everything I need from Toontrack at the moment.
Same thoughts. Please do let us know once you hear back from Toontrack on if it is per transaction. As per the system, it looks like per transaction, which would be disastrous.

Over the last year, I am just settled with Toontrack stuff that I wanted, which is good. [If you remember, I bought an EZX from you. :)] Although at some point I might consider selling or swapping some things. For now, it will be best to just keep what I have and make good use of it. No buying/selling Toontrack at least for some time.

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KVRAF
2722 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:29 am

I posted a question in their forum over here:
https://www.toontrack.com/forums/topic/ ... nsfer-fee/
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

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KVRAF
2136 posts since 28 Feb, 2015

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:18 am

kovacs wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:29 am
I posted a question in their forum over here:
https://www.toontrack.com/forums/topic/ ... nsfer-fee/
The answer to why is probably because they're seeing a growing activity on second hand sales, and want to get at least something back, or stop it if the can (and they will definitely stop the smaller transactions with the €15 fee).

Anyway, we don't know how much sales they potentially are loosing. Looking at their total revenue between 2019-07 to 2020-06 it was "only" 140M SEK, which is 13.8M EUR, and that's not as much as I would have though. Reason Studios (latest figures for one year) had 95M SEK though. Clavia had 267M SEK, Elektron 142M SEK. Yes, comparing Swedish companies within the same business area, but only the revenue, not the actual balance. Teenage Engineering 192M SEK.

Anyway, and I regret saying this, but economically a company looses the same amount of money when transferring a license legally, as they would if a person would illegally download it. At least in the short-term way of thinking.

I don't take for granted that all developers even allow second hand sales. Before I became a member of this forum I didn't even know that you could sell software second hand.
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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KVRAF
2722 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:33 am

It doesn’t matter what we think. The EU has ruled that it is illegal to deny resale of used licenses.

Image-Line ignores this, which is why I stopped using FL Studio years ago.
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

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KVRAF
2136 posts since 28 Feb, 2015

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:50 am

kovacs wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:33 am
It doesn’t matter what we think. The EU has ruled that it is illegal to deny resale of used licenses.

Image-Line ignores this, which is why I stopped using FL Studio years ago.
First of all, this way they are not denying anyone.

Secondly, that old court decision you are talking about will probably not hold up in court anyway.

And yes, you can vote with your wallet. But what is the different for those companies between you buying second hand only, or you not buying their stuff at all?
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

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KVRAF
2722 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:06 am

Not sure if you are just trolling or not. I have bought 80% of my Toontrack products directly from them. When they overnight slams a $15 resale tax on every single license, they definitely don’t have their users in mind. I don’t mind them charging a fee, but it needs to be fair - and they need to inform their customers.
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

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KVRAF
4425 posts since 16 Aug, 2017 from South Yorkshire

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:23 am

kovacs wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:06 am
I don’t mind them charging a fee, but it needs to be fair - and they need to inform their customers.
5-10% of the retail value?
Currently trying to turn noise into music. :neutral: Is boutique the new old?

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KVRAF
2722 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:44 am

The Noodlist wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:23 am
kovacs wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:06 am
I don’t mind them charging a fee, but it needs to be fair - and they need to inform their customers.
5-10% of the retail value?
Perhaps. Or a $10 fee per transaction rather than per license. I can understand that it’s a lot of work for them. But they could automate this.
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

KVRAF
1887 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:57 am

starflakeprj wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:50 am
kovacs wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:33 am
It doesn’t matter what we think. The EU has ruled that it is illegal to deny resale of used licenses.

Image-Line ignores this, which is why I stopped using FL Studio years ago.
But what is the different for those companies between you buying second hand only, or you not buying their stuff at all?
Second-hand value increases the new value to would-be buyers, as they are able to recover some if they move on to an alternative or decide to shrink their virtual studio. Buying second-hand is demand and pushes up the value.

KVRist
103 posts since 24 Nov, 2010 from New York

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:17 pm

LoveEnigma18 wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:43 am
skiltrip wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:23 am
EINZI wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:56 pm
I was on the other end of this with Skiltrip. It's really unfortunate that Toontrack has added a transfer fee. It's still the usual verbiage without any associated costs. I reached out since none of this is published on their website. Their support team advised they began charging 6/24/2021 for license transfers. I responded stating this kills second hand buying/selling of many of their products... no response at all.

This move makes me second guess buying any more Toontrack products, especially midi or EZMix.
The biggest hit for me is the security of, an example: "If I end up not liking this EZX, at least I can flip it and get a bit of the money back". Now it's basically no return, no resale, unless getting back $10 seems worth it. I did write them asking if it's $15 per license or $15 per transaction. No response yet.
This wouldn't hurt too bad selling bundles, but people usually don't want bundles, because it's rare they want multiple items, even rarer that they want exactly everything you put in your bundle. Oh well. Fortunately, I kind of have everything I need from Toontrack at the moment.
Same thoughts. Please do let us know once you hear back from Toontrack on if it is per transaction. As per the system, it looks like per transaction, which would be disastrous.
I heard back from Toontrack. It's $15 per serial. So yeah, selling MIDI, EZX, EZkeys, or EZmix products is pretty much pointless now. Only the more pricey Superior products are really sellable at this point.

KVRist
148 posts since 30 Dec, 2018

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:49 pm

I got the same response, too.

"Currently it is per pack not per lot."

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KVRAF
4289 posts since 12 Jan, 2018

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:02 pm

skiltrip wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:17 pm
LoveEnigma18 wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:43 am
skiltrip wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:23 am
EINZI wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:56 pm
I was on the other end of this with Skiltrip. It's really unfortunate that Toontrack has added a transfer fee. It's still the usual verbiage without any associated costs. I reached out since none of this is published on their website. Their support team advised they began charging 6/24/2021 for license transfers. I responded stating this kills second hand buying/selling of many of their products... no response at all.

This move makes me second guess buying any more Toontrack products, especially midi or EZMix.
The biggest hit for me is the security of, an example: "If I end up not liking this EZX, at least I can flip it and get a bit of the money back". Now it's basically no return, no resale, unless getting back $10 seems worth it. I did write them asking if it's $15 per license or $15 per transaction. No response yet.
This wouldn't hurt too bad selling bundles, but people usually don't want bundles, because it's rare they want multiple items, even rarer that they want exactly everything you put in your bundle. Oh well. Fortunately, I kind of have everything I need from Toontrack at the moment.
Same thoughts. Please do let us know once you hear back from Toontrack on if it is per transaction. As per the system, it looks like per transaction, which would be disastrous.
I heard back from Toontrack. It's $15 per serial. So yeah, selling MIDI, EZX, EZkeys, or EZmix products is pretty much pointless now. Only the more pricey Superior products are really sellable at this point.
As expected. Thanks for the update.

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