DP 11 is out

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KVRist
391 posts since 12 Sep, 2005 from NYC

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:36 pm

pinki wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:37 pm
This thread is heading off the rails. It needs to get back on track and stop virtue signalling and think what the points discussed need to be. Otherwise we are on a ticket to nowhere and a new platform is needed. I think a new breed of engineers need training in what drive(r)s the modern DAW.
Otherwise why make announcements like this?
What makes you think your perspective (you admit you dislike MOTU and DP) is somewhat relevant to validating this thread or the release of DP? All you've done is denigrate this DAW and the developer.
@Pinki : YOU are the reason this thread is going off the rails.
I understand you were a DP user at one time, now you're not and you have found something that suits you better ,so why are you so fixated on slamming everything DP?
If you don't use or like DP anymore why are you so compelled to obsessively flood and derail this thread with your negative rant that seems to be nothing besides anti-DP vitriol?
:dog:
There must be other threads here @KVR that you can participate in in a more constructive manner so you can enlighten people with your superior knowledge and objectivity
:tu: .
2012 Mac Pro,3.46 Ghz,12 core 96g ,Mojave,RME, DP10.13, Logic 10.51,RME UCX, Great River ME-1NV, a few microphones,Spectrasonics, U-he Komplete12U & way too many VI's,Synths & plugins, UAD,Mimic Pro/SD3,Focal Twin 6 monitors, Shunyata ....

KVRist
76 posts since 29 Jan, 2005

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:17 pm

Though Pinki has left the DP station, Pinki is on track for arriving at some bad old fart dad jokes much like at Motunation. I'm sure the engineers there miss you Pinki. Over here you're coming off like a train wreck because the signals are crossed but I think you're funny and wish you all the best and will completely understand and not judge if you come crawling back to DP if you get slammed with a big job that needs that kind of steam behind it.

KVRian
1048 posts since 2 Nov, 2006

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:35 pm

kgdrum wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:36 pm
pinki wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:37 pm
This thread is heading off the rails. It needs to get back on track and stop virtue signalling and think what the points discussed need to be. Otherwise we are on a ticket to nowhere and a new platform is needed. I think a new breed of engineers need training in what drive(r)s the modern DAW.
Otherwise why make announcements like this?
What makes you think your perspective (you admit you dislike MOTU and DP) is somewhat relevant to validating this thread or the release of DP? All you've done is denigrate this DAW and the developer.
@Pinki : YOU are the reason this thread is going off the rails.
I understand you were a DP user at one time, now you're not and you have found something that suits you better ,so why are you so fixated on slamming everything DP?
If you don't use or like DP anymore why are you so compelled to obsessively flood and derail this thread with your negative rant that seems to be nothing besides anti-DP vitriol?
:dog:
There must be other threads here @KVR that you can participate in in a more constructive manner so you can enlighten people with your superior knowledge and objectivity
:tu: .
Oh dear. I guess the humour wasnt too good. Maybe go back a page or two and look at the picture of a train. 👍😀

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KVRAF
3479 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:41 pm

kgdrum wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:36 pm
pinki wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:37 pm
This thread is heading off the rails. It needs to get back on track and stop virtue signalling and think what the points discussed need to be. Otherwise we are on a ticket to nowhere and a new platform is needed. I think a new breed of engineers need training in what drive(r)s the modern DAW.
Otherwise why make announcements like this?
What makes you think your perspective (you admit you dislike MOTU and DP) is somewhat relevant to validating this thread or the release of DP? All you've done is denigrate this DAW and the developer.
@Pinki : YOU are the reason this thread is going off the rails.
I understand you were a DP user at one time, now you're not and you have found something that suits you better ,so why are you so fixated on slamming everything DP?
If you don't use or like DP anymore why are you so compelled to obsessively flood and derail this thread with your negative rant that seems to be nothing besides anti-DP vitriol?
:dog:
There must be other threads here @KVR that you can participate in in a more constructive manner so you can enlighten people with your superior knowledge and objectivity
:tu: .
This sums it up. Christ? using "virtue signaling" as a pejorative without being ironic about it?? :dog:

I get it, I used, or use a DAW and I might want to chime in my negative opinion on a thread about an update etc. but I generally don't stick around to argue with anyone whose happy about the upgrade. This is one of the weird issues with non DAW specific forums like KVR. Every thread on a DAW upgrade doesn't just have complaints, it has people looking to start fights with the users about how useless, a toy, needlessly complicated, or dated or whatever that DAW is.

I used Live for years, switched to Bitwig, I never posted at the Ableton forums about Bitwig, or how much better I thought it was than Live until a thread panning Bitwig 4.

Then there's the train wrecks (to cop someone's analogy here), people who spend a day looking at the DAW, decide its' not pretty or simple enough and claim to have it all figured out and it's just dated, horrible in every way because it doesn't really cater to loops and it's complicated so it must suck. :

Anyway I agree, I would rather discuss the new articulation maps, MPE support, control surface improvements and all the other new features in DP11 than spend time on the detractors.

KVRist
52 posts since 5 Mar, 2003

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:05 pm

Chunks are the biggest unique feature of DP, and the new chunk-related features of DP11 look amazing.

Image


I used DP9/DP10 for a couple of years and then moved to Logic 10.5, which ended up working well for me. Logic suits me in almost every way - but especially zooming and navigation with the keyboard. DP was very mousy-mousy.

I use folders in Logic (not Track Stacks, but actual old school folders) for song organization, like I used to do with DP Chunks. In some ways Logic's folders are better than DP's chunks, and in some ways they're worse.

Where DP's Chunks really excel is (as machinesworking has said) is for keeping different versions of your song in the same project file.

You can sort of do this with Logic folders, but it's not as good: sometimes I keep multiple songs in the same project (e.g. a "v1" folder and a "v2" folder and an "ideas" folder).
Logic Folders for Song Versions
In DP, these would be completely isolated from each other. In Logic, they have to be on the same project timeline, and that means that you always have to be careful about one folder's tempo changes messing up another folder's tempo. Plus if you're in the "v2" folder and you press the "go to start" key command, you'll go to the beginning of the whole project, not the beginning of the folder.

Where I find Logic's folders better than DP's Chunks is with organizing Song Sections on the timeline.
But I'm hoping that DP's new Chunk Set List features improve in this area.
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KVRAF
3479 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:29 pm

magog wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:05 pm
Chunks are the biggest unique feature of DP, and the new chunk-related features of DP11 look amazing.

Image


I used DP9/DP10 for a couple of years and then moved to Logic 10.5, which ended up working well for me. Logic suits me in almost every way - but especially zooming and navigation with the keyboard. DP was very mousy-mousy.

I use folders in Logic (not Track Stacks, but actual old school folders) for song organization, like I used to do with DP Chunks. In some ways Logic's folders are better than DP's chunks, and in some ways they're worse.

Where DP's Chunks really excel is (as machinesworking has said) is for keeping different versions of your song in the same project file.

You can sort of do this with Logic folders, but it's not as good: sometimes I keep multiple songs in the same project (e.g. a "v1" folder and a "v2" folder and an "ideas" folder).

Logic Folders for Song Versions

In DP, these would be completely isolated from each other. In Logic, they have to be on the same project timeline, and that means that you always have to be careful about one folder's tempo changes messing up another folder's tempo. Plus if you're in the "v2" folder and you press the "go to start" key command, you'll go to the beginning of the whole project, not the beginning of the folder.

Where I find Logic's folders better than DP's Chunks is with organizing Song Sections on the timeline.
But I'm hoping that DP's new Chunk Set List features improve in this area.
Just so you know, Logics Arrangement Markers are way easier than using folders to move parts around. :) Yes, zooming in Logic is much better than any DAW really. Personally I hate that they burried the commands for specific tools in another command though, in that sense DP is way faster these days, which is sad because Logic used to be lightening fast tool switching wise.
In DP I think most people end up not taking advantage of the Tracks window enough, and markers in DP are selection tools, double clicking the maker selects everything in the timeline until the next marker. So quick rearranging is actually not that difficult at all in DP.
I like the way folders behave in Logic in that they aren't track folders but arrangement folders, but that's not what I would want to steal from Logic about folders, it's that you can fold or expand the contents of a folder by a key command if selected. With larger projects it's a nice feature to have.

KVRAF
7687 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:41 am

OK, I gave the demo a good go but didn't get on with it and uninstalled (Phew, I already have way too many DAWS).

Loads of great ideas and interesting features, but just didn't click with me, especially the tabbed workflow. Probably great if you know how everything works, but totally overwhelming to an old dog like me which is surprising as I have been using DAWS for 20 years!
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

KVRist
52 posts since 5 Mar, 2003

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:59 am

machinesworking wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:29 pm
Just so you know, Logics Arrangement Markers are way easier than using folders to move parts around. :)
...
In DP I think most people end up not taking advantage of the Tracks window enough, and markers in DP are selection tools, double clicking the maker selects everything in the timeline until the next marker. So quick rearranging is actually not that difficult at all in DP.
I've tried both of these approaches. The problem I have with them (and with the arrangement features of all DAWs that I have tried) is that your sections have to line up exactly on bar lines. I don't have a single song where the verse or chorus begins and ends exactly on a bar devision. There are always pickup notes before the downbeat. There are always sounds or effects tails that extend a little bit into the next section.
machinesworking wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:29 pm
Personally I hate that they burried the commands for specific tools in another command though, in that sense DP is way faster these days, which is sad because Logic used to be lightening fast tool switching wise.
You mean pressing "TM" for Marquee Tool and "TA" for Fade Tool? I actually really like that because it frees up other keys for commands.
machinesworking wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:29 pm
I like the way folders behave in Logic in that they aren't track folders but arrangement folders, but that's not what I would want to steal from Logic about folders, it's that you can fold or expand the contents of a folder by a key command if selected. With larger projects it's a nice feature to have.
What I like about Logic's Folders - particularly for for song arrangement - is that all of the tracks inside all the folders refer to the same channel strips, so when you're mixing and automating you're mixing and automating all folders in the song at once. This doesn't work with DP's Chunks. Or maybe it does with the new set lists feature, I don't know.

The best and worst thing DP Chunks for song arrangement is each chunk is completely isolated from all other Chunks.

I haven't done any film scoring, but as near as I can tell, this is where DP Chunks really shine. Each cue can be in its own Chunk that is completely isolated from all other cues and can be tied to a particular SMPTE time. I have no idea how people manage their multiple cues in other DAWs but it sounds like it must be painful.

KVRian
1048 posts since 2 Nov, 2006

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:14 pm

machinesworking I was making a joke: see big picture of the train.

pinki wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:37 pm
This thread is heading off the rails (trains geddit!). It needs to get back on track(trains geddit!) and stop virtue signalling(trains geddit!) and think what the points(trains geddit!) discussed need to be. Otherwise we are on a ticket(trains geddit!) to nowhere and a new platform(trains geddit!) is needed. I think a new breed of engineers(trains geddit!) need training(trains geddit!) in what drive(r)s (thought that one spelled it out-trains geddit!) the modern DAW.
Otherwise why make announcements (trains geddit! - come on that one is good) like this?

Oh well I guess I'm not very funny and instead of lightening things up I started a flame war. Hey ho. My bad.

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KVRAF
3479 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:32 pm

magog wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:59 am
I've tried both of these approaches. The problem I have with them (and with the arrangement features of all DAWs that I have tried) is that your sections have to line up exactly on bar lines. I don't have a single song where the verse or chorus begins and ends exactly on a bar devision. There are always pickup notes before the downbeat. There are always sounds or effects tails that extend a little bit into the next section.
Selection in DP is marker based, markers don't have to be on a measure. :)

You mean pressing "TM" for Marquee Tool and "TA" for Fade Tool? I actually really like that because it frees up other keys for commands.
I like one key tool selection, Apple took that away. :cry:

What I like about Logic's Folders - particularly for for song arrangement - is that all of the tracks inside all the folders refer to the same channel strips, so when you're mixing and automating you're mixing and automating all folders in the song at once. This doesn't work with DP's Chunks. Or maybe it does with the new set lists feature, I don't know.

The best and worst thing DP Chunks for song arrangement is each chunk is completely isolated from all other Chunks.
So you used DP a long time ago for sure then. I started off with hardware and with everything mostly done as MIDI I used the Song window with Chunks. Sounds like what you're trying to do. IMO what with VST AUs, etc. Chunks are a little too clunky for using the Song window that way, it has it's place mainly for film scoring these days IMO.

Chunks on the other hand can be used to drag in various verses, choruses, etc. into a song. I do this often, separate out the main parts of a song into their own Chunks then drag them into each other in a single sequence to rearrange the song etc.

I
haven't done any film scoring, but as near as I can tell, this is where DP Chunks really shine. Each cue can be in its own Chunk that is completely isolated from all other cues and can be tied to a particular SMPTE time. I have no idea how people manage their multiple cues in other DAWs but it sounds like it must be painful.
It probably is painful.

As far as Chunks, they shine for multiple mixes of the same song, mixdowns to audio files for mastering, extended versions, recording a bands 10 songs then mixing them, what would be ten projects is one, etc. etc. They definitely aren't only useful for film work.

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KVRAF
3479 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:45 pm

SLiC wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:41 am
OK, I gave the demo a good go but didn't get on with it and uninstalled (Phew, I already have way too many DAWS).

Loads of great ideas and interesting features, but just didn't click with me, especially the tabbed workflow. Probably great if you know how everything works, but totally overwhelming to an old dog like me which is surprising as I have been using DAWS for 20 years!
Of the DAWs in your list only Studio One is sort of close though.
What's funny is the one DAW I never got was ReNoise. Never used trackers before so I'm completely lost when I open it.

Thanks for being polite about it. :) DP is a tough nut, I never use the tabs BTW, always double click MIDI or audio to open the most used editor, I'm not fond of mousing so if there's a key command or other shortcut that doesn't involve moving a mouse I'm learning it.

Personally I'm trying to drop back down to two DAWs. I used DP and Live for years, neither had MPE so I bought Reaper, got a deal on FCP and Logic, then kind fell into Bitwig. The issue is they're all great, then DP and Live go ahead and get MPE support. :ud:
I'm probably dropping back to DP and Live or Bitwig or Live or Bitwig.. :oops:
Bitwig will win by default if Apple release the 16" MBP with Apple silicon though. 8)

KVRist
52 posts since 5 Mar, 2003

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:02 am

machinesworking wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:32 pm
magog wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:59 am
I've tried both of these approaches. The problem I have with them (and with the arrangement features of all DAWs that I have tried) is that your sections have to line up exactly on bar lines. I don't have a single song where the verse or chorus begins and ends exactly on a bar devision. There are always pickup notes before the downbeat. There are always sounds or effects tails that extend a little bit into the next section.
Selection in DP is marker based, markers don't have to be on a measure. :)
Well, yes of course. But what I mean is this selection method does not handle overlaps between sections. If the verse ends on beat 3 and the chorus starts on beat 2, then none of the DAWs (DP included) will allow you to cleanly select just the verse or just the chorus.


machinesworking wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:32 pm
So you used DP a long time ago for sure then.
Ha! It was last year! But I did come to realize that DP's Song window is ancient and not really suitable for what I'm trying to do.

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KVRAF
3479 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:30 pm

magog wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:02 am
Well, yes of course. But what I mean is this selection method does not handle overlaps between sections. If the verse ends on beat 3 and the chorus starts on beat 2, then none of the DAWs (DP included) will allow you to cleanly select just the verse or just the chorus.

Yeah you would have to select by mouse each part that overlaps etc. On one of your other points I was trained out of putting pick up notes at measure one by angry drummers! :hihi:

Ha! It was last year! But I did come to realize that DP's Song window is ancient and not really suitable for what I'm trying to do.
The caveat with V-Racks, is no track automation, instruments in them have to use MIDI only. If you can accept that limitation then the Song window is great, it bogs down with too many FX and soft instruments in it, but if you can V-Rack everything then it's useful. The entire ecosystem of DP would change if MOTU would allow plug in/track automation from V-Racks. They've always stated that because V-Racks have no tracks then it's impossible, but VEP has no tracks and it publishes track style automation to the host.

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KVRAF
3479 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:08 am

Messing around with MPE I’m pretty impressed with the implementation. MOTU took into account devices like the Linnstrument that have the ability to split the grid into two instruments for upper and lower MPE, with the ability it seems to override MPE for the device by switching to MIDI 1 (named I’m guessing in preparation for MIDI 2), in the plug panel. I can’t think of a way to do this in Reaper or Logic etc? maybe in Bitwig for sure but good to have this feature.

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