Alias / Linked / Shared / Pooled Clips - are you using them?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

Are you using alias / linked / shared / pooled clips?

Yes, all the time
22
36%
Yes, occasionally
8
13%
No, although my (main) DAW has it
17
28%
No, my (main) DAW does not have it
10
16%
I had no idea there's such a feature
4
7%
 
Total votes: 61

User avatar
KVRAF

Topic Starter

10710 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:14 pm

apoclypse wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:04 pm
Now if all you are talking about is Alias clips in the arrange view then sure I 100% agree it should be there (like I said Logic has that), however I'm sure what people want is Alias clips in the session view as well the arrange view and given almost all Ableton like DAWs work the same I'm wondering if there is a limitation somewhere that we don't know about.
I want them everywhere. Obviously in Arrangement, but also within Clip Launcher (e.g. I might want to have a repeated clip across several scenes) and in particular between Clip Launcher and Arranger (so that if I change something in Clip Launcher it gets updated in the Arranger, and vice versa).

I think the reason for absence of alias clips in Live is simple - it was never designed for it, so internal clip data don't include relevant data structures. In Bitwig it's even simpler - Live didn't have it, so they didn't think it was needed.

Funny thing is, Claes' DAW Project references "alias clips" :)
Stuff for sale @ Knobcloud: 1 year of Reason+, iZotope Music Prod. Suite 3, Cubase Pro 11



Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7607 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm

I don't use them and won't use them! I don't like my change to be repeated in every clip! Not even drums!
If I want to duplicate clips, that's very easy! Want to delete and replace a clip. It's also very easy, but to make a change in one clip then going to every ghost and convert it to independent clip ... etc that what I don't want :)

I can see why in modern dance music FL Studio is popular, for example. It's very repetitive music and they just play with modulations and sound, but the content is very repetitive. That's why they need ghost clips I think 🤔

User avatar
KVRAF

Topic Starter

10710 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:31 pm

Dalle wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:31 am
For my workflow I don’t see a situation where creating and managing alias clips would be more efficient than just copying and pasting when needed (which isn’t often).
EnGee wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm
I can see why in modern dance music FL Studio is popular, for example. It's very repetitive music and they just play with modulations and sound, but the content is very repetitive. That's why they need ghost clips I think 🤔
Thanks for making the thread complete - there's always one (or two, in this case) "true musicians" who never repeat anything ;) :D
Stuff for sale @ Knobcloud: 1 year of Reason+, iZotope Music Prod. Suite 3, Cubase Pro 11



Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

User avatar
KVRAF
20422 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:41 pm

apoclypse wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:04 pm
If Scenes in Ableton-like DAWs worked like they do in hardware it would make more sense. Maschine's Ideas view or the MC707/101s sequencer is probably closer to what I mean. Scenes in Ableton-like DAWs are a collection of clips. Scenes in the MC707/101 is a collection of references to clips. There is a difference there. For example in Ableton Scene 1 would consist of all the clips I want to play on that scene. If I have clips that I want Scene 1 to launch I have to copy those clips to the scene 1 area. In Maschine Ideas view or the MC, its actually, scene 1: plays pattern 3 on track 1, pattern 5 on track 2, pattern 4 on track 3 etc. Any Scene can play any pattern in a track without me having to copy that clip to the Scene. It's referencing the pattern.

Now if all you are talking about is Alias clips in the arrange view then sure I 100% agree it should be there (like I said Logic has that), however I'm sure what people want is Alias clips in the session view as well the arrange view and given almost all Ableton like DAWs work the same I'm wondering if there is a limitation somewhere that we don't know about.
It is obviously complicated with a Session View/Clip Launcher. If it were simple, Ableton would have done it long time ago.

Even when I use Logic, I don't use Aliased Clips. I find the concept a bit finicky. By the time I finish a composition, there would not be duplicate clips. So for me, the idea is potentially useful for quick prototyping of a composition. But when I think about that, I would rather have a more macro level aliasing option.

For example, a 'Scene' Track in Bitwig. There I could define Scene 1 to play 8 bars, then Scene 3 play 8 bars, Scene 1 play another 8 bars or whatever. And those Scenes would reference Clip Launcher Scenes. So if I edit Scene 1 in the Clip Launcher, it would affect wherever Scene 1 is played in Arrange. I like the idea of being able to have multiple Scene tracks to be able to save multiple Arrange layouts (with only 1 active at a time obviously).

That is just a quick idea... could have issues. My point is not to advocate for that specific idea, but for a more macro level instancing along those lines.

User avatar
KVRAF

Topic Starter

10710 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:17 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:41 pm
For example, a 'Scene' Track in Bitwig. There I could define Scene 1 to play 8 bars, then Scene 3 play 8 bars, Scene 1 play another 8 bars or whatever. And those Scenes would reference Clip Launcher Scenes. So if I edit Scene 1 in the Clip Launcher, it would affect wherever Scene 1 is played in Arrange. I like the idea of being able to have multiple Scene tracks to be able to save multiple Arrange layouts (with only 1 active at a time obviously).

That is just a quick idea... could have issues. My point is not to advocate for that specific idea, but for a more macro level instancing along those lines.
That's how Blocks mode in Reason works :)
Stuff for sale @ Knobcloud: 1 year of Reason+, iZotope Music Prod. Suite 3, Cubase Pro 11



Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRian
630 posts since 29 Jun, 2009

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:22 pm

Antic, out of curiosity, how many DAWs are “currently” implementing Alias Clips?
Ableton > :phones: < Bitwig

User avatar
KVRAF

Topic Starter

10710 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:31 pm

Biscotto wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:22 pm
Antic, out of curiosity, how many DAWs are “currently” implementing Alias Clips?
Most do. I'm aware of: Cubase, Studio One, Cakewalk, Reaper, FL Studio, Logic Pro.
Stuff for sale @ Knobcloud: 1 year of Reason+, iZotope Music Prod. Suite 3, Cubase Pro 11



Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7607 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:00 pm

antic604 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:31 pm
Dalle wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:31 am
For my workflow I don’t see a situation where creating and managing alias clips would be more efficient than just copying and pasting when needed (which isn’t often).
EnGee wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm
I can see why in modern dance music FL Studio is popular, for example. It's very repetitive music and they just play with modulations and sound, but the content is very repetitive. That's why they need ghost clips I think 🤔
Thanks for making the thread complete - there's always one (or two, in this case) "true musicians" who never repeat anything ;) :D
You asked for opinions, right? You got them! Now to mock about them?! Not nice!

You should start your thread with just one biased direction, so you don't get "unwanted" opinions. This is the last time I contribute in any thread you start, as the lack of respect for different opinions is dominating your posts.

KVRian
630 posts since 29 Jun, 2009

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:02 pm

antic604 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:31 pm
Biscotto wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:22 pm
Antic, out of curiosity, how many DAWs are “currently” implementing Alias Clips?
Most do. I'm aware of: Cubase, Studio One, Cakewalk, Reaper, FL Studio, Logic Pro.
Exactly... something about Ableton and Bitwig Session/Scene structure may be the problem being there from the very beginning.
.
Ableton > :phones: < Bitwig

User avatar
KVRAF
20422 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:46 pm

EnGee wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't use them and won't use them! I don't like my change to be repeated in every clip! Not even drums!
If I want to duplicate clips, that's very easy! Want to delete and replace a clip. It's also very easy, but to make a change in one clip then going to every ghost and convert it to independent clip ... etc that what I don't want :)
I record my clips and when I want to make a 'duplicate' I generally record it again. Some of my favorite evolutions have happened in that process. And I end up with more pleasing variations than making a bunch of duplicates and manually altering them.

KVRAF
7607 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:57 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:46 pm
EnGee wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't use them and won't use them! I don't like my change to be repeated in every clip! Not even drums!
If I want to duplicate clips, that's very easy! Want to delete and replace a clip. It's also very easy, but to make a change in one clip then going to every ghost and convert it to independent clip ... etc that what I don't want :)
I record my clips and when I want to make a 'duplicate' I generally record it again. Some of my favorite evolutions have happened in that process. And I end up with more pleasing variations than making a bunch of duplicates and manually altering them.
:tu: I do it also because it gives this slight change/error that might open new ideas and flow, but in drums and bass I don't play it all from start to finish, but rather small clips that I repeat with some variation. So, in practice I never use ghost clips and it has no benefit for me.

KVRian
771 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:06 pm

EnGee wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:57 pm
pdxindy wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:46 pm
EnGee wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't use them and won't use them! I don't like my change to be repeated in every clip! Not even drums!
If I want to duplicate clips, that's very easy! Want to delete and replace a clip. It's also very easy, but to make a change in one clip then going to every ghost and convert it to independent clip ... etc that what I don't want :)
I record my clips and when I want to make a 'duplicate' I generally record it again. Some of my favorite evolutions have happened in that process. And I end up with more pleasing variations than making a bunch of duplicates and manually altering them.
:tu: I do it also because it gives this slight change/error that might open new ideas and flow, but in drums and bass I don't play it all from start to finish, but rather small clips that I repeat with some variation. So, in practice I never use ghost clips and it has no benefit for me.
I agree. Even when I use ghost clips by the time I'm done with the project they would have all been converted to individual clips anyway as I make changes.

Imo alias clips can be harder to keep track of sometimes as sometimes you just want to make a simple change to one part of a song but forget that it's an instance. I do that all the time in S1's pattern clips. I keep forgetting to click the duplicate button in Pattern view when I want to change a clip and end up having to undo and redo everything again.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

KVRian
630 posts since 29 Jun, 2009

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:20 pm

It's a common thing to want what's missing and then never really use it in real production.
Someone do, no doubt, but they usually gravitate to the right DAW for their needs.

Of course there are request on all kinds of level but to pick a DAW with a specific, established workflow it's easier than waiting for the Developers to implement something that it's not part of their vision.
Ableton > :phones: < Bitwig

User avatar
KVRAF
5267 posts since 15 Oct, 2017 from U.S.

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:31 pm

Pretty much what pdxindy said

I feel like there should be a 'no my main daw does not have it AND I wouldn't even if it did' option
Living rent free

KVRAF
3485 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:34 pm

I also use MuLab and it has a great Alias/Ghost system with a database list of all the Clips (Sequencers) on the Browser.

I hardly use it (the Ghost thing) because just to manage the Ghost and start choosing which ones in this moment of “Flow” I want unlink or keep or duplicate or duplicate-Ghost..... please... :dog:

The poll should have an additional choice:
Who the hell needs it... :hihi:
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

Return to “Hosts & Applications (Sequencers, DAWs, Audio Editors, etc.)”