IK announces UNO Synth Pro

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 pm

SLiC wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:17 am
@Bones- I don't think you need an account to view it, apparently out this month (looks finished to me!)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CPV_2JOHOlX/
That takes me to the log in/sign up screen. It even wants me to jump through hoops to log in with my Facebook credentials. They can bash it up their arses.
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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:10 pm

lfm wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:15 pm
You cannot get a value for a knob - so better with no knob at all.
So the fact that it doesn't work is not a reason to find something better? Can you not see how assinine that is?
That is what less knobs per function do - you don't even have a knob unless setting edit modes and stuff.
There are two points to make here. First is that by sacrificing all those knobs that don't do what you need them to do, you get a $500 synth that fits in a shoulder bag with your laptop, instead of having to pay $2000 for something that will barely fit in a suitcase. The second is that it removes the expectation that you will be able to see what's going on, so it's a lot less disappointing/frustrating.
And suddenly mod matrix in other synths than Uno does not count. DeepMind is certainly a mod matrix.
Not talking about a mod matrix. I don't think I have even used it in Uno Pro.
Uno is perfect as it is in BONES world
No, it's just a much better compromise than anything else I am aware of. They've made sure not to compromise on sound quality but kept the price low enough that anyone can afford it.
This is the perfect illustration of why life is so much better when you work ITB. You can't see more than a fraction of your instruments at a time, much less interact with them. You have get up and turn around to do anything. To me that's an absolute nightmare. My Uno Pro, or one of my MIDI controllers, sits directly above the screen on my laptop, well within reach when I am sitting in front of Studio One. That's my whole studio set-up - 1 x laptop, 1 x mouse, 1 x synth/controller. Everything within easy reach, everything immediately available and, of course, everything turned up to 11!
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10, UR44C | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Carbon | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

lfm
KVRAF
5745 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:35 am

BONES, we have very different preferences
- you don't mind menu diving on hardware to get a small footprint to get hardware into you bag
- so knob per function just makes hardware larger and is disadvantage for you
Having stationary setup I only care about sound and funfactor, and no compromises needed.
It's also hands on playing to sit and fool around a bit with no notice.

- you don't even mind mouse clickfest with editing synth presets, you even prefer it
The very reason I started building my hardware setup to get away from.

I tried for NI B4 with an UC33 controller, which nicely enough has ready panel overlay and preset ready for B4. But no, did not improve enough compared to hardware Hammond for workflow and not for sound either.

That was 10 years ago and I only got hardware instruments since.

About matrix parameter editing, I have that style in Kawai MP7SE. I hooked on "matrix" and thought mod matrix. Anyway, Kawai allow to assign what you want to knobs around display as playing the piano also, not just while editing parameters. That is really something for live tweaking what is not on panel as knobs. Very handy for rhodes piano with phaser and tremolo among other things.

It's the same for all editing, these 4 knobs have both name of parameters and parameter value in display at each corner where knob is so even more intuitive as text and knob and just a cm away.

JV80 I had were as I recall 8 slider beside display, and also parameter name in display selected by buttons below display. But still no funfactor making presets.

if to reduce menu diving that style placing knobs around display more synths could benefit from.
But if having knob per function to at least 80% of parameters less needed, really.
Wavestate, Prologue and DeepMind all have getting parameter in display on the knob you touch. Prologue and DeepMind both show stored value in preset as well as what current is. Wavestate hold Enter and touch knob stored value show up in display without changing value.

But as I suggested Uno could with same footprint had plenty more handson and knob per function placing knobs around just a slightly larger display. Then which function knob has could be told in display, not occupying almost half panel with backlit fixed texts to tell knob function. But price would go up a bit, but workflow a breeze to work with and attract bigger userbase, I think.

It's a lot of compromises to cut costs down making hardware, so IK made their choice.

I talked to some people at ATV about eDrum module and they made the choice to make midi usb, and I ask myself what they were thinking. You cannot have 10m usb cables, they fail seriously but DIN Midi would work fine over to drumpads+module. So no purchase from me due to they saved on 2 DIN midi connectors compared to make midi over usb.

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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:04 pm

lfm wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:35 am
BONES, we have very different preferences
- you don't mind menu diving on hardware to get a small footprint to get hardware into you bag
- so knob per function just makes hardware larger and is disadvantage for you
It's not even that. I took a Monologue to Germany last time we played there, in my carry-on luggage, and I kept it around for a while after we got home because I liked the way it sounded. In the end, though, one of the main reasons I got rid of it was the frustration of the knob-per-function shit fight I had to put up with. Ultimately, I found it more annoying than any of the hardware I own that uses a similar editing style to the Unos. As I said, it sets up a different expectation but, beyond that, because it's all exactly in front of me, not spread out across a large front panel, I find it quicker and easier to work with, too. Of course, endless encoders improve it a lot, so synths like Ultranova, Pulse 2 and MicroMonsta probably offer the best experience, although the endless encoders on the Analog Keys don't make up for it's really poor display. But Uno Pro's editing experience is also very good, especially when it can be sitting in my lap while I sit on the lounge and watch telly.
Having stationary setup I only care about sound and funfactor, and no compromises needed.
It's also hands on playing to sit and fool around a bit with no notice.
As I said yesterday, only because you have chosen to set it up that way. For me, getting my hardware up and running requires far more effort than sitting down in front of my laptop, which is usually on if I am at home. "Fun factor" is completely irrelevant to me, I always have work to do. Any enjoyment I get is from getting a song working, individual instruments are nothing more than tools.
you don't even mind mouse clickfest with editing synth presets, you even prefer it
I prefer it because it's a measurably better way of getting the best results in the time I have to work on our music. It's an entirely practical decision.
The very reason I started building my hardware setup to get away from.
Well, after 20 years of working with hardware, through the 80s and 90s, it only took me a few months working ITB to understand the enormous benefits it brings to every aspect of what we do. There is literally nothing hardware does better than software, not a single thing.
It's the same for all editing, these 4 knobs have both name of parameters and parameter value in display at each corner where knob is so even more intuitive as text and knob and just a cm away.
So you do see the benefits, so imagine having them for every parameter.
But still no funfactor making presets.
Agreed, there is no fun whatsoever in making presets. Ever. It's a tedious chore but it needs to be done.
But as I suggested Uno could with same footprint had plenty more handson and knob per function placing knobs around just a slightly larger display.
I've used synths like that and this is better. It's more straightforward, less cluttered and it works really, really well. You have four targets for your fingers and one target to look at if you need to. Clean and simple.
Then which function knob has could be told in display, not occupying almost half panel with backlit fixed texts to tell knob function.
That's what I like about it - clear, obvious and simple. Compare it to these -
Image
An1x, the matrix is on the right-hand side (cut off, but you get the idea).

Image
Waldorf Pulse 2. At least it had endless encoders (made from stainless steel, no less).

OTOH, the Uno Pro's lighted line makes it obvious what you're doing, without having to keep looking to the left edge to make sure the correct row is active. It's a really good way of doing it.
But price would go up a bit, but workflow a breeze to work with and attract bigger userbase, I think.
I think you're wrong and IK seem to think so, too. Price is a way bigger barrier than anything else. You just have to look at the comments here to see that.
You cannot have 10m usb cables
Why would you need 10m cables? For $5 or so you can buy a USB to MIDI device that would fix that for you anyway. That's how we've always connected Sik's drumpads to my computer, In fact, that MIDIsport1x1 was the very first USB device I ever bought and it's still going strong today.
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lfm
KVRAF
5745 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:56 pm

BONES wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:04 pm
You cannot have 10m usb cables
Why would you need 10m cables? For $5 or so you can buy a USB to MIDI device that would fix that for you anyway. That's how we've always connected Sik's drumpads to my computer, In fact, that MIDIsport1x1 was the very first USB device I ever bought and it's still going strong today.
I had so many serious issues with usb longer than 1.5m and since it is not galvanic isolation, earth same as computer, you start painting yourself into a corner and eventually creating ground loops. It's a clever thing this current loop style with DIN midi. Rather well thought out 40 years ago.

I have 3 midi interfaces with giving 6 ports and the rme card one, and all work without issues. But it's 1m cables.

And what I mentioned on ATV, their unit only had usb midi - so having DIN midi in other end does not help. You need USB HOST(I think it's called) support to make interface work on that side.

I mentioned to them to do as Akai did on MPC X, a firmware update and they fixed USB host support to extend with more midi port interfaces if class compliant ones. So ATV were to think about it but they thought very few need it. They had a simpler model with DIN midi but for some reason taken out on top model.

Just an example how cutting down hardware features is lost sales in some cases. To me Uno Pro is flawed in this way using up so much panel for nothing more than backlit text. Other synths like DeepMind is also strange choices IMO having sliders everywhere where you could get knobs per function on at least envelopes. One slider can make room for 3 knobs. Sliders are good if room for all envelopes, but better with knobs if all can fit.

I'd say not many favour sitting by computer doing presets in editor compared to hands on knob per function. And they probably just use available presets and libraries for the convenience of ITB, than going for originality.

I tried a lot with one I like a lot, Waves Element, but you don't sit there the amount of time to make own presets to have originality in the sounds you use.

A bit stumped making presets is such a PITA for you chosen this line of work. Every line of work has some thing that is a downer but thought creating originality for your work as an artist would not be one of them.

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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm

lfm wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:56 pm
Just an example how cutting down hardware features is lost sales in some cases.
Yeah, I'm sure they're heartbroken because, obviously, everyone needs to use 10m cables. You still have explained why you do.
To me Uno Pro is flawed in this way using up so much panel for nothing more than backlit text.
In that case, you don't know what you're talking about. After all, it's not like you've actually used it. That panel is likely just a few mm thick, a knob can be even larger beneath the panel than it is above it, so the whole chassis would likely need to be much thicker to accommodate knobs down there. Because you only have to pick it up to realise that there is no extra space in there. It is very heavy for its size and they couldn't even make room for a couple of batteries.
Image

And while adding all those knobs and making the synth unreasonably large might have sold you, they would have lost me as a customer.
Other synths like DeepMind is also strange choices IMO
How many other people need to be making strange choices before you start to think that maybe it's you who is the strange one?
I'd say not many favour sitting by computer doing presets in editor compared to hands on knob per function.
Really? Are you serious? How many Pro 3s do you think Sequential have sold? How many licenses for DUNE do you think Synapse have sold? 10 times more than Sequential? 100 times? I think it's more likely 1,000 times more, maybe even 10,000 times more if you add in pirated copies.
I tried a lot with one I like a lot, Waves Element, but you don't sit there the amount of time to make own presets to have originality in the sounds you use.
How much time do you spend making patches? I probably spent 4 or 5 hours making them for Uno Pro before I had all I needed. Since then I have probably spent 40 or 50 hours using those patches, which is what they are for.
A bit stumped making presets is such a PITA for you chosen this line of work. Every line of work has some thing that is a downer but thought creating originality for your work as an artist would not be one of them.
You're talking about it like it's difficult or time consuming. It's not, any idiot can do it in no time at all. I probably spend as much time dusting my desk as I do patching synths. It's the tiniest fraction of the work involved in creating a finished song and compared to rebuilding an engine to make your car go faster, which I have done more than once, it's an absolute doddle. I hate working on cars but I love it when they go faster or go around corners better so I do the work. I hate cleaning but I like to have a clean home so I do that, too.
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lfm
KVRAF
5745 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:28 am

BONES wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
[
To me Uno Pro is flawed in this way using up so much panel for nothing more than backlit text.
In that case, you don't know what you're talking about. After all, it's not like you've actually used it. That panel is likely just a few mm thick, a knob can be even larger beneath the panel than it is above it, so the whole chassis would likely need to be much thicker to accommodate knobs down there. Because you only have to pick it up to realise that there is no extra space in there. It is very heavy for its size and they couldn't even make room for a couple of batteries.
Well, that is typical BONES/WAYNES world argument.

There is no right or wrong, there is what you prefer.

Is it the Korg Nutekt NTS series that pretty much drop panel above, just pots soldered there not to spoil footprint.
https://www.korg.com/se/products/dj/nts_1/

I don't need to use Uno Pro to see that a lot of space on panel wasted on backlit text. Takes just a glance.
Really? Are you serious? How many Pro 3s do you think Sequential have sold? How many licenses for DUNE do you think Synapse have sold? 10 times more than Sequential? 100 times? I think it's more likely 1,000 times more, maybe even 10,000 times more if you add in pirated copies.
- yeah, and those with softsynths all use factory presets in their productions is my estimate.
My remark was not about how many play softsynths vs hardware ones, to clarify if I was ambiguous.
Those investing in hardware have way more inviting instruments to actually strive for originality - at least on Sequential and many others with knob per function.

If you want to repeat what others did, yes, get a sample library. No need to pay for expensive hardware.

Synthesizers allow to find sounds that nobody heard before. There are foundations like bass, piano, violins, brass where individuals spend a lifetime to master. That is cool. But mimic these instruments in synthesizers miss the point more or less.

Early years of synths and go on tour was obviously cool to have a brass sound, and you can cut 3 guys in the band and mimic that. Or a strings patch etc for a pad.

Today you have sample libraries to do that, synths could do other things.

Black Crowes for one, still bring 3 brass guys for just a few songs in a set. They know a synth does not compare. Nice....

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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:56 am

lfm wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:28 am
There is no right or wrong, there is what you prefer.
Which you can't decide if you haven't even bothered to f**king try it out. You are making an assumption you cannot possibly justify, based on a prejudice.
Is it the Korg Nutekt NTS series that pretty much drop panel above, just pots soldered there not to spoil footprint.
https://www.korg.com/se/products/dj/nts_1/
So take even half the thickness of that, add it to the thickness of Uno Pro and all of a sudden you have something that is at east 25% bigger and you still won't have come close to achieving your knob-per-function goal. So you are making it bulkier and less portable for no reason. To achieve knob-per-function it would have to be at least the size of something like an Ultranova or an Argon8/Cobalt8 and it would be horrible.
- yeah, and those with softsynths all use factory presets in their productions is my estimate.
There are endless examples of people using factory sounds from hardware instruments, too. It's not something exclusive to people who work ITB. Not even close and it's incredibly arrogant of you to think otherwise.
Those investing in hardware have way more inviting instruments to actually strive for originality
That is the greatest load of steaming bullshit I have read this week. Again, your arrogance shines through, to think that somehow buying hardware makes you superior to people who work ITB. Are you really so insecure that you have to boost your ego by spending stupid amounts of money on things nobody needs any more? Honestly, you should be embarrassed by what you have written there. Ashamed, even.
If you want to repeat what others did, yes, get a sample library. No need to pay for expensive hardware.
Right, because nobody of any worth has ever copied Beethoven or Mozart, have they. Oh, wait on, yes they have. People who quite rightly wouldn't give you or I the time of day.
Synthesizers allow to find sounds that nobody heard before.
So what? Anything worth hearing has already been done a thousand times. If you think anything you can possibly think to do is truly original, you're kidding yourself. What's more, if you think there is any intrinsic value in doing something for no other reason than it hasn't been done before, you are a fool.
There are foundations like bass, piano, violins, brass where individuals spend a lifetime to master. That is cool. But mimic these instruments in synthesizers miss the point more or less.
Unless you can't afford a grand piano. What's the next best thing?
Today you have sample libraries to do that, synths could do other things.
Anything a synth can do, a sample library can do at least as well, probably better. Plus, of course, Kontakt instruments allow you to be creative in ways many synths cannot. If you can't take something like Heavyocity's Nova Strings and make something mind-blowingly creative, then spending thousands on a hardware synth isn't going to suddenly imbue you with magical powers to get it done, either, I can promise you that.
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lfm
KVRAF
5745 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:44 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:56 am
Those investing in hardware have way more inviting instruments to actually strive for originality
That is the greatest load of steaming bullshit I have read this week. Again, your arrogance shines through, to think that somehow buying hardware makes you superior to people who work ITB. Are you really so insecure that you have to boost your ego by spending stupid amounts of money on things nobody needs any more? Honestly, you should be embarrassed by what you have written there. Ashamed, even.
- of course it is, in BONES/WAYNES world. :D

My point is
- just because you spent so much more you have another aim or goal
- I think it is a reasonable assumption

When you spend pocket money
- that you do on anything
- a coffee latte or whatever more or less, to be blunt

I found hardware investments has been so incredibly more rewarding
- and assume that might go for most hardware investors
- it cost more as investment
- but selling off is no catastrofhy in loss either

But as usuall
- BONES always stating facts and universal truths
- eveybody else know naaaaaaaathing
------Manuell, Fawlty Towers
;)

Have fun in your Uno Pro No Room For Improvement-unit....but waits for the editor since too tedious to work with unless I must....

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KVRAF
19850 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:54 pm

lfm wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:44 am
I found hardware investments has been so incredibly more rewarding
- and assume that might go for most hardware investors
- it cost more as investment
- but selling off is no catastrofhy in loss either
I've purchased hardware I was disappointed with and returned or sold it. Same with software.

Everyone should use what they find inspiring. For me it is a combo of hardware synths, software synths and computer DAW.

My two favorite synths are u-he's Bazille and the Elektron's Analog Rytm. The Rytm does stuff no software can do. It has a sound character nothing I have heard in software touches. But I can say the same thing about Bazille. No hardware I've found can replicate Bazille. I see no reason to choose between them.

The UNO Synth Pro looks pretty good to me. One advantage it has over the Sequential Pro 3 is that while the Pro 3 has 3 different filters, you can only use one at a time. The UNO Synth Pro can use its dual filters in series or parallel. The user interface looks pretty good. It is not knob per function, but it is well laid out and I can imagine developing a quick muscle memory with it. Looks to me to be a solid combo of capability, good workflow and modest price.

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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:27 pm

One of the good things about the two filters, too, is that they are two very different sounding filters, which broadens the sonic possibilities a lot more than just doubling up on the same filter. I do miss the bandpass filter from Uno, though - setting the two filters up in Uno Pro to do bandpass is a lot more fiddly. But I still have my old Uno so it's no big deal, really.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10, UR44C | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Carbon | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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GRRRRRRR!
12298 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:45 pm

lfm wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:44 am
- just because you spent so much more you have another aim or goal
- I think it is a reasonable assumption
Why would you think that? There is no evidence to support such an assertion, which is kind of what I've been trying to get through to you. Just because you don't like sitting in front of a computer doesn't mean nobody else does. Quite the opposite - sitting in front of your computer puts your entire studio at your fingertips. You don't have to move from place to place to use different bits of equipment, it's all right there with instant access to a world of tools you could never hope to have available in hardware. Even if you could afford to spend the money, you'd have no hope of housing it all in any way that would make it all usable.
I found hardware investments has been so incredibly more rewarding
- and assume that might go for most hardware investors
Again, why would you make such an assumption? Especially when you hang out on a forum dedicated to VST plugins.
- BONES always stating facts and universal truths
- eveybody else know naaaaaaaathing
Well, I think it is clear form your ravings that you don't know much about people. To assume that everyone thinks like you is another example of your arrogance.
Have fun in your Uno Pro No Room For Improvement-unit....but waits for the editor since too tedious to work with unless I must....
You can't play the editor and last night I spent the best part of four hours playing the Uno Pro. Actually, that's not accurate. I spent four hours playing songs, the Uno Pro only got used where it was needed during that time. That's on 5 songs out of 17 x 3 run-throughs, so just over an hour of Uno Pro playing in that time. All from it's own keyboard, too, and all while sitting in front of my computer.
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lfm
KVRAF
5745 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:29 am

And drama BONES continues...
- Yes we all know it's arrogant to have a different view than BONES have
- just deal with it

- and it's a cardinal sin to think god did not make Uno Pro perfect from start
- just deal with it

It's lack of imagination or unwillingness not to see that shelling out a substantial part of your economic means will be on something you treasure.
- yeah, I'll get a Pro 3 for $2000 to play all the factory presets
- not likely

compared to a couple of latte's on a VST synth and you soon have a disk full of them when you used the presets and discarded for use.

You love the idea of screentime making synth presets - and I detest it
- well, you hate making presets in the first place but screentime it is
- just deal with it

and yet you get yourself hardware to then have an editor to again make more screentime?
- to me this makes no sense
- just deal with it

Anybody with a Pro 3 will make more unique sounding presets than an Uno Pro owner
- it is just more inviting to do that due to hands on for everything
- you can even use both hands and find little "accidents" while tweaking
- it's the laws of physics and least resistance syndrom that knob per function reel you in

Yes, I know it's a cardinal sin to say something like that ;)
- weren't all synths created equal?
- just deal with it
:)

KVRAF
7914 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:39 am

lfm wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:29 am

Anybody with a Pro 3 will make more unique sounding presets than an Uno Pro owner
That is I think the dumbest thing I have ever read on KVR, and that takes some doing!
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

lfm
KVRAF
5745 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Post Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:02 am

SLiC wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:39 am
lfm wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:29 am

Anybody with a Pro 3 will make more unique sounding presets than an Uno Pro owner
That is I think the dumbest thing I have ever read on KVR, and that takes some doing!
Be insulted if you want, or try to get essence of what I wrote.

Asumption builds on
- how extraordinary pricetag somebody shelled out on a Pro 3
- and make good use it because of it
- knob per function invites "use me"

Seriously menudriven hardware like Uno Pro
- kills the enjoyment sooner to make presets

You saw BONES comment, he did what he really needed to get done with the set he is doing live, then wait for editor?
- think about that for a minute

As BONES usually state THIS FROM EXPERIENCE SO DON'T YOU QUESTION IT ;)

I notice difference directly between serious knob per function Nordlead2X and Prologue where presets made by me are in range 300-500.

Compare to others like I have or had
- Deepmind, a lot more back and forth on display and a few dozen presets
- KingKorg same thing, too much menu diving, sold it
- Blofeld, sent it back in a week, very capable but hiddeous workflow
- Wavestate, same thing with maybe 5 presets made in a year
- D-05, not a single preset made, all loaded from sysex from internet
- D50, tried a bit maybe a handful made(almost 20 years ago)
- JV80, about the same as D50

For the Rolands I contemplated to get a programmer P800, or what they were called to get more sliders for parameters. But never got around to it.

And I really like making presets, as opposed to many others.
I spend hours at a time doing it - when synth invites to it.
It's an exploration journey that I enjoy - if the tool invites me.

Very simple logic which I assume apply to most people - common sense really.
As to any general rule, there would be exceptions....

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