Advanced music theory in electronic music (Modulation/Chromatic Chords etc)

[Ohero]

Hi, I'm coming from more of a classic background, and trying to approach electronic music from that view. Here is my question:
Is 'advanced' music theory is used often in electronic music?
I mean, there are some genres that use jazz harmonies, some use modes. But have you ever seen a song using a Neapolitan chord , modulation, etc that is commercially successful?
Got any examples?

[Niklashe]

Hi!

Can you perhaps define electronic music or at least narrow it down a bit. Are artists/bands like Vangelis, Jean-Michel Jarre and Tangerine Dream included? Absolutely commercially successful and electronic but also more "classical" inspired in their music.
What about IDM? Lots of artists and bands that are/were very theoretically advanced, are they included?

[shawshawraw]

My take is that, the pronounced percussion elements in "non-classical" music are shifting the point of view on how harmonies contribute. For example, the drum fills on every 4 or 8 bar mark may always give a hint of phrase regardless of what harmonies are doing. Which means there's far greater flexibility on the choice of notes to still get digestible music.

That's what I've been pondering on my own question "why is there far less usage of I6/4 in non-classical music". I'd love others' thoughts, too!

[excuse me please]

I'd just make a good analysis of the tracks you like. Determine what you like about the tracks. The rest comes down to creativity.

[excuse me please]

PS I don't know how others compose, but I follow the old 'try and fail until you stumble upon magick' credo.

[cryophonik]

I can't think think of too many examples off the top of my head, but I've heard various mode-based tracks in electronica, the occasional secondary dominant and key changes, and borrowing from various Eastern musical styles as well (Delerium and Conjure One come to mind here). If you include downtempo/chillout, it's not uncommon to hear jazz influences. There's also the subgenre "jazztronica", which I can't say I've spent much time listening to, but it's a thang...

[harryupbabble]

PS I don't know how others compose, but I follow the old 'try and fail until you stumble upon magick' credo.

same here. trial and error. ear-based.

all my past, present, and probably future ever-evolving music-making method(s) have that in common. all involve random generators.

in the end, whatever sounds good i keep (about 5 percent), whatever sounds bad (about 95 percent) i discard.

but with the lyrics-making, ears are useless. random generators are useless too. it's the hardest part of song-making, to me at least.

it's time-consuming. i'd take that immortality pill without hesitation if the choice is there.

[jancivil]

I write parts onto the key editor and hear possibilities, and execute.
The possibilities - one's percentage of something working - are _vastly_ expanded with knowledge and a discipline, and a vocabulary out of experience.
and an ear from transcribing things (as close as yez can get to all the way, everything you can find out by your ear).

Not everyone is built to be able to do this, higher aptitude means more ease as well as capacity for the sustained interest. There are areas of endeavor I have no business having an expectation of mastery in.
One does their due diligence and remains constant, the floundering and wild guesses may become a thing of the past.

[jancivil]

""why is there far less usage of I6/4 in non-classical music."
most music is non-classical music. A 16/4 to V and a turnaround signifies classical music both in the broad sense and the strict sense (a rather brief period in the early 19th century {say, sons of JS Bach to late Beethoven or maybe Berlioz where a label 'Romantic period' may be said to ensue.}).
It's just a device, it does something stylistic...
It also indicates certain voice-leading moves, ie., linear musical thought as opposed to merely stating rudimentary chord chunks. It isn't much of a thing in modern jazz, and where it does occur is probably referential.

as far as drum fills and such marking a form, you are right, but music has seen quite some devices for achieving a sense of form that aren't harmonic function for ages, including a rather significant chunk of time before harmonies in the modern sense were even a thing, let alone fully codified.

[Chr!s]

Hi, I'm coming from more of a classic background, and trying to approach electronic music from that view. Here is my question:
Is 'advanced' music theory is used often in electronic music?
I mean, there are some genres that use jazz harmonies, some use modes. But have you ever seen a song using a Neapolitan chord , modulation, etc that is commercially successful?
Got any examples?

There are many remixes and arrangements of Classical music in an electronic style and Jazz elements are often mixed with it, generally on soundtracks, but I notice that seems to be something which is more popular in Japan for whatever reason.

It's especially common in video game music; a lot more complex than just basic 4-on-the-floor kicks and pentatonics.

[Functional]

It all comes down to what constitutes as "electronic music". It's a terribly large spectrum with countless genres that each have their own ideas.

Plenty of chromaticism here, including a lovely chromatic descent that initiates the 2-5-1 to the bVI during the chorus. I don't know what you count as popular, but this video has almost 100 million views, so I guess that counts for something I hope?



However not knowing why you're asking this question makes it pretty hard to give any meaningful answer beyond just linking random electronic songs that do stuff. I also think that you're looking for the wrong thing here for two reasons. First you mention "jazz harmony" which kind of meaningless since, apart from modal jazz, jazz harmony is just really similar to classical harmony if you just look it through chords. Which brings us to second thing: stuff like Neapolitan sixth isn't about the chord really. You can use easily a bII chord but what makes the Neapolitan sixth so striking is the voiceleading: the voice occupying the b2 degree has a strong pull towards tonic degree. But it doesn't go to tonic degree, instead it goes to the leading tone (which it can do through tonic degree by occupying third of an augmented sixth chord - happens in Lacrimosa).

So what are you really looking for? If you just want examples of chromaticism in electronic music, it's chock full of that. If you want classical voiceleading in electronic music, you won't find that much of it except the trivial stuff.

[vurt]

this guy knows his onions
yes these are known classic pieces but he has also scored orchestras and such, he uses bits and pieces in his own electronic stuff too

might be worth a look?

[takaperry]

There are many remixes and arrangements of Classical music in an electronic style and Jazz elements are often mixed with it, generally on soundtracks, but I notice that seems to be something which is more popular in Japan for whatever reason.

Even outside of soundtracks, Japanese pop music is quite unique in that it uses a lot more complex chord movement compared to Western pop music. You'll quite commonly have diminished / augmented chords, as well as multiple modulations within a song, or perhaps the chorus of the song being in a different key from the rest of the song. For an example, check out this song which was a #1 song in Japan a few years ago, specifically around around 1:15



All in all, I think experimentation with scales and chords is what makes music fun, but I think it's a balance of using those chords and know when a simple triad is the ticket; for the average Western listener those crazy chord movements and modulations might make it hard to digest and enjoy on a basic level.

[shawshawraw]

Even outside of soundtracks, Japanese pop music is quite unique in that it uses a lot more complex chord movement compared to Western pop music. You'll quite commonly have diminished / augmented chords, as well as multiple modulations within a song, or perhaps the chorus of the song being in a different key from the rest of the song. For an example, check out this song which was a #1 song in Japan a few years ago, specifically around around 1:15

This song may not be a great example. It all stays in the minor key. The diminished chord in use stays in key on 7 2 4 b6. The end of chorus is interesting, borrowing a IV V VI movement to go back to the tonal major bIII, colorful moment!

I do notice the love of all-over-the-place modulations in J-pop. And the 'Picardy 3rd' is almost a cliche!

All in all, I think experimentation with scales and chords is what makes music fun, but I think it's a balance of using those chords and know when a simple triad is the ticket; for the average Western listener those crazy chord movements and modulations might make it hard to digest and enjoy on a basic level.

That's definitely, complexity has to be managed... but "I'mma leave the door open"! :p

[Triplefox]

It's easier to find examples of commercial electronic artists who use rhythm in ways considered advanced to classical theory, e.g. Venetian Snares, than it is to find the same with harmony.

To me it's more interesting to consider that the lines around what harmony "is" do get blurred a bit with the technical details of production - harmonization in certain genres is often dealt with in the sense of "I am going to play the same thing with more or fewer harmonics", and it's easy to speed up a looping sample or entire passage until it becomes an oscillator. You aren't restricted to thinking in terms of fundamental frequencies that humans could feasibly perform, and you can arbitrarily redefine the fundamental by sculpting the signal. If it's considered microtonal to sweep frequency filters, then "advanced" is all over today's dance music, even though pop progression remains the most readily identifiable element.