ROLI's writing on the wall happened

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
Post Reply New Topic
RELATED
PRODUCTS

Post

machinesworking wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:23 pmCompanies like NI and Roli end up selling themselves off to investors after years of unchecked growth, at some point they get these massive mixed reputations, but they offered "value" at the cost of the companies stability.
When another company opts for the independent boutique item approach you get these sort of awkward unrealistic comparisons.
They are completely valid comparisons, given both are products designed to do exactly the same f**king thing. Anybody who chooses a company, rather than a product, is a complete idiot in my book. I don't give a flying f**k about any company, if they are offering me a product I want at a price I am willing to pay. If Roland Lamb turned out to be a child molester, it wouldn't make the tiniest difference to how I view Roli's products. I wouldn't buy them in that situation but I'd still have the same opinion of them.
I'm a fan of RME, they aren't cheap, but in the same time I've owned the FF800 it's fair to think that someone else (anecdotally all my real life musician friends), would go through 3-4 cheaper audio interfaces.
Again, I don't give a flying f**k about RME and I've still got the $200 Edirol UA-20 I bought in 2002. In fact, that's a great example of what I'm talking about because I have a fairly low opinion of Roland's synths but I didn't let that influence my decision to buy a UA-20, because it was the best product I could find at the time, for my needs. Do I still use it? No, because it was such a tiny investment I didn't feel any loyalty to it, so I've tried heaps of other things since. Some were good, some not so good, but I'd still happily use the UA-20 again, if my band-mate was finished with it. What it does tell me is that even if I won Lotto, there is no way I'd waste three grand on an audio interface because you just don't need to.

You've spent a fortune on your RME, 3 x what my current laptop cost me, so of course you are going to put more into making it work. But, honestly, if that was the price I had to pay for an I/O device, I just wouldn't bother. I'd happily get by plugging my laptop directly into my monitors, or via a $200 line mixer if I needed to mix any hardware in with it. I'd much rather put that money towards my next new car.
To me, this is the case with software companies and hardware controllers as well. If there is no way to play the thing 10-15 years from now then why buy it?
I would fully expect anything I own today to still work in 15 years time, unless it breaks. That's the beauty of being on Windows - everything keeps working. The MIDIman (now M-Audio) USB to MIDI adapter I bought in 2000, when I was on Windows 95, still works today. We still rely on it on stage and we've never had a problem with it. I've probably had my Ultranova for nearly 10 years, too, and I can still load up the VSTi editor and I can still use it as an audio I/O device if I want to because the drivers I have for it still work, even though the product was discontinued several years ago.
The advantage of software is huge, it's 10x cheaper than hardware, but if it dies in 3-10 years and you relied on it, and it requires you to set up an old version of Mac or Windows OS to run it, or worse it can't be authorized then to me it starts losing it's value as a fantastic 10x cheaper product.
That's just absurd, It is a scenario that is far less likely than that your hardware synth will break and you won't be able to get it fixed. For me, continuity is probably the biggest advantage in going ITB. In my hardware days, I would spend 6 months getting all my songs working every time I upgraded my sequencer, so I could play a gig. Today I can load any song we have ever played since we started using Orion, all the way back to 2001, and even if there is something missing, sorting that out is trivial compared to what I used to have to go through with hardware, as is moving it from Orion to Studio One.
The Osmose won't be dead in 5 years, it will be a sort of miracle if Lumi isn't. This means the cheaper Block might be better "value" today, but there's no telling what tomorrow brings.
This is the perfect example of your irrationality. You cannot possibly know if Osmose will ever get released, much less whether or not it will be around in 5 years. It's pure wishful thinking on your part with absolutely no basis in reality. Anything could happen - they might get bought out by Fatar, just so Fatar can kill it off, the main guy behind it ight drop dead (that happened to my father and he lost tens of thousands he'd invested in the guy's idea), it might prove unreliable, keys might go dead after a year of playing. You just don't know. You can't know but that doesn't stop you making pronouncements. Do you not see how that completely undermines any credibility you might think you have?
machinesworking wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:44 pm
I can buy any keyboard controller and a dedicated Mac Mini M1, slap a bunch of synths on it, disconnect it from the internet FOREVER, and keep using it as a hardware synth for as much as long as the osmose at least.
This gets trotted out, and I admit I've trotted it out too, but who does this?
Nobody does it, that's kind of the point. If there was any reason to do it, people would do it but the reality is that as a justification people use for buying hardware, it doesn't stack up. I've often thought about installing some standalone softsynths on my ancient 8" Windows tablet and seeing how they go but, ultimately, I can't see the point so I haven't got around to it.
Seriously, I've thought about it, but it just doesn't happen. Years of discontinued software tittles etc. meanwhile the few hardware synths I own are still there.
You don't need to go to anything like those lengths. One of the best things about my ITB set-up is that it is infinitely more portable than hardware. I have a laptop that is 2cm thick and weighs just 1.5kg. Add in a Roli Lightpad Block that is the same thickness, just 10cm square and only weighs 250g and you've got a perfectly playable setup that fits in even a small shoulder bag. It will all run for hours and hours on batteries so I don't even need a power-point to use what isn't just a portable synth, but a portable warehouse full of synths.
I'd also point out that there are dozens of softsynths I've had for way, way longer than I've owned any of my current crop of hardware synths. I bought Uno in 2018, my current Rocket in 2020 and Uno Pro this year. Everything older than that is gone or going. OTOH, I still have pretty much all my softsynths, all the way back to the turn of the Century, so I can still go back to a project from 2002, open it and it will work, unless it's a live thing, because I no longer have any of the hardware we used live last time we played (2017).
This is the difference between software and hardware, there's no authorization issues, finding a compatible driver, OS, DAW etc. no upkeeping old software.
No, instead you have repair costs, cabling, the cost of a mixer, stands to put things on, dustcovers, cases/bags for transport, powerboards, extension leads, power conditioners and all the rest of it. To suggest that hardware upkeep/maintenance is easier or cheaper than software is complete and utter bollocks, I'm afraid. We are only two-thirds of the way through the year and I've already spent more than $400 on hardware-related things (but not actual hardware) but only $99 on software upgrades - the new Korg Collection v3, which included several actual new synths. The one hardware synth I've bought in 2021 has cost me twice as much as the last 10 softsynths I've bought, combined, and I got it cheap! And, if I'm honest, it's about 1% as useful as even the recent Freebies I've got. But that's OK because I like having it around and we'll definitely get some use out of it if lockdown ever ends and that's enough for me.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

Post

vurt wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:17 pm
pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:11 pm
It's funny how perspective changes opinion. You see the Osmose as expensive but for me it seems cheap cause it is half the price of a Continuum (which I own). :hihi:
youre rich!

dont suppose youre looking to adopt one slightly used beardy bloke? :hihi:
Lose the beard and I'll let you have a go on my MPK Mini II. :party:

Post

Keith99 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:05 pmI invested in Kore that became useless, then Alchemy and now my Seabord :(
A new week and a new high for reading really dumb things. How is your Seaboard any less useful today than it was last week? How will it be any less useful in a year or 5 years or 10 years?
pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:11 pmThe Osmose, using initial pressure (and ignoring velocity), allows each finger to function as the unique amp envelope for the note. You can read about this on the Haken (Continuum) website under MPE+. Neither the Linnstrument nor Seaboard offer this.
Of course they do, they just do it with velocity. That is, in fact, the main thing I use velocity for in the sequencer because it saves me having to automate volume. And, honestly, how do you differentiate between velocity and initial pressure in your playing technique? And when does initial pressure become aftertouch? It all sounds like smoke and mirrors to me and you still don't get Glide. So it's 5D Touch-, not MPE+.
You see the Osmose as expensive but for me it seems cheap cause it is half the price of a Continuum (which I own). :hihi:
I think it's expensive because in every video I've seen ,it looks cheap and nasty, like it was slapped together in a sheltered workshop. Just look for any shot where you can see across the keys at an angle and you'll see they are all over the place like a beggar's teeth. Initially I wrote it off as a hand built prototype but in more recent videos of pre-production keyboards, it's been the same. It might be really good but the way it looks doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

Post

ShawnG wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:09 pm
machinesworking wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:46 pm
It's just a good idea to know what you're getting into, that's all.
I think the only area where we differ on this issue is that I'm ok with the ephemeral non-permanent nature of it all and you aren't?

yes, you should be aware of the fact that whatever you buy in this software based arena isn't something you can hold your arms tight around forever. even so, there are probably ways that I could make all of my now defunct software purchases work if I really wanted to.

my main points were these:

purchases aren't investments
don't rely on anything lasting forever.
enjoy what you want/need without worrying about the last point.

to cycle around to the issue at hand which is ROLI (my only "loss" in this is GEIST and a few expansions, they cycled BFD over to InMusic). Obviously there was terrible business management at play here, and an overestimation of demand, but this is fairly common in this industry. I would rather a company make innovative products and burn out, rather than play it safe and boring. Now, sure it would be the greatest if you had an innovative company that was run by competent businesspeople, but that doesn't happen all the time. If you bought a seaboard and love it, rejoice. it is a thing that exists.
Well first off, no I'm not upset at the "ephemeral non-permanent nature of it all", I just acknowledge that some companies provide better product for long term use. RME VS any other audio interface maker provides ridiculously fast driver updates, and supports "dead" hardware for so far decades. This isn't saying that 20 years from now they wont stop existing, it's just who provides a better long term investment?

In our conversation there isn't the duality you're painting, you're saying that products that burn out that are great at first is part of the cost of innovation. I do not think that's true at all. It's decisions made about how a product exists in the market, and how it ties into the computer ecosystem, if it cannot exist as a controller without drivers, then it's going to have a limited lifespan. Compare the Seaboard to the Linnstrument, the Linnstrument has a built in brain, it can store presets, and exist outside of an OS.
These are both MPE controllers, but the Linnstrument will very likely be fine 15 years from now, the Seaboard will require you as an end user to set up an ancient by then computer with an outdated OS, including hopefully all the proper drivers etc. etc.

NI are an example of both issues in controllers, Kore and Rig Kontrol have already lost audio support under OS X, and have been depreciated from the Controller Editor software, i.e. at some point without freezing a system, you will lose them. Rig Kontrol isn't even supported by Guitar Rig anymore... On the other hand the Komplete 88 has a brain, can still be used as a keyboard and MIDI controller without Controller Editor or a computer, to me that's value added.

I'm just saying we all should be aware of these things, know what you're getting into. It's not controversial.

Post

BONES wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:01 am A new week and a new high for reading really dumb things. How is your Seaboard any less useful today than it was last week? How will it be any less useful in a year or 5 years or 10 years?
well, the configuration software stops being supported so you need to keep an old machine around to keep it working
Image

Post

BONES wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:07 am They are completely valid comparisons, given both are products designed to do exactly the same f**king thing.
Yeah? I bought a sax because it does exactly the same f*cxking thang as a clarinet!
Both reed instruments, both monophonic = same! :lol:

Seriously, this argument is terrible. The Linnstrument and the the Seaboard do not do exactly the same thing, even if both are MPE controllers.

Post

machinesworking wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:21 am Yeah? I bought a sax because it does exactly the same f*cxking thang as a clarinet!
Both reed instruments, both monophonic = same! :lol:

Seriously, this argument is terrible. The Linnstrument and the the Seaboard do not do exactly the same thing, even if both are MPE controllers.
don't clarinet and sax share like majority of the fingering
Image

Post

This is silly too, it's late here so I don't have time for all of it, but...
"The Osmose won't be dead in 5 years, it will be a sort of miracle if Lumi isn't. This means the cheaper Block might be better "value" today, but there's no telling what tomorrow brings.
This is the perfect example of your irrationality. You cannot possibly know if Osmose will ever get released, much less whether or not it will be around in 5 years. It's pure wishful thinking on your part with absolutely no basis in reality. Anything could happen - they might get bought out by Fatar, just so Fatar can kill it off, the main guy behind it ight drop dead (that happened to my father and he lost tens of thousands he'd invested in the guy's idea), it might prove unreliable, keys might go dead after a year of playing. You just don't know. You can't know but that doesn't stop you making pronouncements. Do you not see how that completely undermines any credibility you might think you have?
It's not crazy to think it will be released. The company hasn't filed for bankruptcy and a name change.
There aren't people who used to work for them chiming in on this thread about their plight.

Way to ignore the simple fact that a device with a brain will survive the demise of the software and hardware companies attached to it. I'm not even lauding them, I'm not buying it, I like software better, but to ignore the transient nature of software based solutions is to rant at people about how permanent software is after your favorite sequencer went under and you had to switch because new things stopped working in it. :dog:

Post

Ploki wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:30 am
machinesworking wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:21 am Yeah? I bought a sax because it does exactly the same f*cxking thang as a clarinet!
Both reed instruments, both monophonic = same! :lol:

Seriously, this argument is terrible. The Linnstrument and the the Seaboard do not do exactly the same thing, even if both are MPE controllers.
don't clarinet and sax share like majority of the fingering
yeah I can't tell then apart at all, the whole way people play sax is exactly like how people play clarinets.

Post

pinki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:51 amExpresivee make musical instruments but you carry on ios … :dog:
Korg make musical instruments and literally dozens of them are made for iOS, which kind of makes your point seem stupid, don't you think?
(about the Lumi I know not because I have not used one)
I assume you haven't used an Osmose, either, yet you feel the need to defend that. How is it any different for you than the other guy?
pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:44 pmThe Osmose is a 24 voice hardware synth. You can just turn it on and play. Doesn't need to be connected to anything.
Yes, it does. It has to be plugged into mains power and that's a hassle. OTOH, I can just open the lid of my laptop and play/edit whole songs, anywhere, any time. For hours on end. Osmose simply doesn't compare in that regard.
There is currently no other keyboard hardware synth like it.
So what? I could say the same thing about half the softsynths I own. The important factor is that there are other way of achieving the same thing.
The closest today would be Hydrasynth as it has PolyAT. But that is still not really like the Osmose. Osmose list price is $1799. Hydrasynth is selling for $1299 ($1499 list) and only has 8 voices.
bx_oberhausen was only $29 and it has 36 voices. So what?
If the Osmose doesn't interest you, fine. But why have such a negative attitude about a company creating a new, innovative synth with nuanced expressive possibilities we didn't have available before.
Except it's the synth from the Haken Continuum, which has been around for nearly 20 years, FFS. Where's the innovation?
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:56 pmWhat this video doesn't provide however, is the feel of the keyboards. Have you ever actually used one? I have. I bought one. Sent it back immediately because it feels terrible. I had high hopes but at the end of the day it has to be something that is enjoyable to play. Lumi absolutely does feel like a toy. The cheapest korg mini keyboards feel better.
But you are happy to assume Osmose will be better. Why, because Jordan Rudess endorses it?

It's a shame to hear that Lumi Keys doesn't play well, can you elaborate on "terrible" for those of us who were hoping to get one at some stage, because I can't imagine getting the chance to try one for myself for a good, long time.
pinki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:23 pmIt's really strange to have such a negative attitude towards the Osmose when it hasn't even been released yet. And it's not actually expensive. My Touche cost £350 and my Osmose is going to cost about 4 times that.
Osmose is horribly expensive! I could buy 2 x Roli Songmaker Kits (Seaboard Block, Lightpad Block and Loop Block in a case) or 9 x Lumi Keys for the same money. And Lumi Keys has pretty much the same feature set.
machinesworking wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:52 pmIMO it's good to have a solid perspective on the downsides to software.
As opposed to your lunatic's perspective.
At some point Kore will not run on a modern OS, in the case of Mac OS that's already true, and I would bet there are dozens of configurations, upgrades to the DAW etc. that are breaking Kore on windows. the choice will be old computer clutter for Kore or to abandon it.
You mean the same sorts of choices we all make with our hardware, whether it be running out of space or not having enough channels in our mixers or whatever. I reckon Kore will still be working with Windows long after your hardware is dead.
NI like many companies at some point depreciates old hardware and software. There are companies that do not do this if they can help it.
Name one. I can't think of any.
whannel wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:08 pmAwesome, hadn't heard of it - pretty much what I was thinking just need it on desktops and other platforms now and why not make it change colours to play along to MIDI and they're safe. If they can add this functionality to Equator2 I'd be delighted.

This would be awesome on the lower screen of my ZenBook Duo! Although I'm not hearing any velocity or aftertouch response. They should include a Mod Wheel or an X-Y Pad.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

Post

BONES wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:33 am Name one. I can't think of any.
RME
machinesworking wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:32 am yeah I can't tell then apart at all, the whole way people play sax is exactly like how people play clarinets.
:lol:
Image

Post

BONES wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:33 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:56 pmWhat this video doesn't provide however, is the feel of the keyboards. Have you ever actually used one? I have. I bought one. Sent it back immediately because it feels terrible. I had high hopes but at the end of the day it has to be something that is enjoyable to play. Lumi absolutely does feel like a toy. The cheapest korg mini keyboards feel better.
But you are happy to assume Osmose will be better. Why, because Jordan Rudess endorses it?
I can't answer why to something completely made up. I haven't assumed anything about Osmose at all, or written anything about it. I also didn't know Jordan Rudess endorsed it, nor would that matter to me. I assumed the Lumi would feel better or I would not have ordered one.
It's a shame to hear that Lumi Keys doesn't play well, can you elaborate on "terrible" for those of us who were hoping to get one at some stage, because I can't imagine getting the chance to try one for myself for a good, long time.
Sure - For a start the keys feel quite mushy. The "black" keys in particular were stiffer than the "white" keys. Secondly, the actual material surface feels odd, like a weird plastic. Also, I thought the size wouldn't matter much since it is advertised as something like 84% of full size keys, however I don't love the size, but maybe that wouldn't have mattered so much if the feel was better.

Lastly - Some keys were different heights and actually one or two of the keys actually felt quite different in terms of key travel and stiffness. That was a big reason it was returned because that definitely wasn't right, but that was a quality issue.

Post

lol somewhere over at FB wrote this about ROLI:
All Roli products will continue to be supported as before. This is very bad news.
Image

Post

Bones I figured it out...you are the master of quoting people out of context! Hilarious.

Post

Just count how many threads he has ruined alone the last two days. And with the blessings of a certain moderator here...

Post Reply

Return to “Hardware (Instruments and Effects)”