FL Studio 20.8.4 Released inc. Apple Silicon Support

[0degree]

So is Harmor working on Mac yet?

Yes. However we have stopped selling the VST version (all VST and AU plugins actually). Its all native only now.

Technically that's not true - they can still be purchased: https://www.pluginboutique.com/manufact ... Image-Line
Are you guys planning to onboard people who bought your VST plugins to your DAW so that (we) can benefit from any future updates? Those plugins are really good and it would be a shame to just cut them off

[pdxindy]

As a user, it's working great for me. And no, the software I use does not become obsolete. Today, I'm using the same software I've been using for some years and when I purchase one of the soon to be announced MBP's, I will still be using the same software.

And the change to ARM is fantastic! Great for us users.

Not great for all Mac users. For example, certain pro-level sample editors can no longer be installed on post-Sierra MacOS, thus requiring me to keep a separate partition to run some software on 'old' MacOS.
This greatly affects my workflow. But more worryingly, should my Mac die, causing me to buy a new one, my question is, will I be able to install say, Yosemite on a new partition? Definitely not great for all users.

For sure, if you are using some old software no longer supported by its developer, then you'll need to maintain an older computer to run it on. Perhaps you should buy an older Mac as a backup machine cause seems unlikely you'll be able to install Yosemite on a new machine.

[chk071]

Technically that's not true - they can still be purchased: https://www.pluginboutique.com/manufact ... Image-Line

I'm wondering if Plugin Boutique is legit. They also sell NI bundles called "NI Komplete Classics", which I never saw on any other site, or from NI themselves. PB seem a bit shady to me, as of late.

[xbitz]

Those plugins are really good and it would be a shame to just cut them off

^^^ since Bitwig is able to import the FLS projects I prefer the VST versions in FLS too so fingers crossed ( for the import feature too, duno it's how legit but nice feature for sure)

[0degree]

Technically that's not true - they can still be purchased: https://www.pluginboutique.com/manufact ... Image-Line

I'm wondering if Plugin Boutique is legit. They also sell NI bundles called "NI Komplete Classics", which I never saw on any other site, or from NI themselves. PB seem a bit shady to me, as of late.

That's a pretty big retailer. I can't see how it's not legit and I'm pretty sure IL is well aware of this

[chk071]

I only had good experiences with them as well. It just strikes me as odd that they sell such bundles when not even NI offers something like "NI Komplete Classics". They make it look like it's something like Komplete Select, Standard, or Ultimate, while it only seems to be a collection of selected single NI plugins. Even did covers for those bundles:

[machinesworking]

The problems I am referring to are caused by the macOS updates not FL Studio.

Updates expose the workarounds.
FL Studio is code, code gets deprecated, lazy developers use workarounds to continue to use deprecated code, and blame others for their trouble when the OS breaks that code.
Apple deprecates code at a higher rate than Microsoft, but then as of now I don't see MS developing their own chips? There are solid reasons for the most part that this happens.

One thing that is true, macOS is certainly a developer hostile environment.

Why are you interested in telling us about this? Most developers that started on Mac OS are not complaining on public forums about it. You never see U-He for instance with posts like yours complaining. It's not any huge stretch to think the culture at U-He makes for a much better working experience with Apple, whereas you guys have long since established a hostile relationship, going back decades. I love Angus, great developer, glad you got him on your team, but he's not any example of a mac friendly developer. He spent months back in the day arguing against AU development for instance.

[chk071]

I find this very interesting, TBH.

Also interesting that of all people you mention u-he, who started developing on Mac initially, and more or less always was a Mac first developer.

[0degree]

I only had good experiences with them as well. It just strikes me as odd that they sell such bundles when not even NI offers something like "NI Komplete Classics". They make it look like it's something like Komplete Select, Standard, or Ultimate, while it only seems to be a collection of selected single NI plugins. Even did covers for those bundles:

Yeah, those are just singles rebranded to be a "bundle"
But anyway I'm sure IL is aware of Plugin Boutique's plugins listing which kinda sucks because buyers might not be aware they will never be updated

[aMUSEd]

So is Harmor working on Mac yet?

Yes. However we have stopped selling the VST version (all VST and AU plugins actually). Its all native only now.

That's annoying - don't want to have to buy FL Studio just to run a few plugins (I own Harmor, Harmless, Edison and several others as well). Unless there was a really cheap pathway for us plugin orphans to get it.

[machinesworking]

I find this very interesting, TBH.

Also interesting that of all people you mention u-he, who started developing on Mac initially, and more or less always was a Mac first developer.

U-He do great Windows code, I haven't seen any complaint about it, but that's part of the point, he's not uncomfortable coding for Mac OS and working with Apple, and doesn't have the built in animosity. IMO if you worked for Apple and had to chat with U-He or Image Line about some issues they might have with their code etc. it would be pretty easy to see which company you would be more relaxed and helpful with, and which one would be like pulling teeth.

We see right here with the "official" Image Line presence on KVR that it's not any mystery that developers tend to blunt with their feelings about Apple etc. that translates into the working relationship. U-He has in the past literally had Apple come by their headquarters to talk, go over any issues etc. I seriously doubt that experience would ever happen with Image Line given this thread and others around the web, including their funny but harsh link on Mac OS development previous to Delphi getting ported to Mac OS.

[Image-Line]

I find this very interesting, TBH.

Seems KVR can be a hostile place also

[FapFilter]

The problems I am referring to are caused by the macOS updates not FL Studio.

Updates expose the workarounds.
FL Studio is code, code gets deprecated, lazy developers use workarounds to continue to use deprecated code, and blame others for their trouble when the OS breaks that code.
Apple deprecates code at a higher rate than Microsoft, but then as of now I don't see MS developing their own chips? There are solid reasons for the most part that this happens.

One thing that is true, macOS is certainly a developer hostile environment.

Why are you interested in telling us about this? Most developers that started on Mac OS are not complaining on public forums about it. You never see U-He for instance with posts like yours complaining. It's not any huge stretch to think the culture at U-He makes for a much better working experience with Apple, whereas you guys have long since established a hostile relationship, going back decades. I love Angus, great developer, glad you got him on your team, but he's not any example of a mac friendly developer. He spent months back in the day arguing against AU development for instance.

u-he (and of course quite a few others too) have complained about VST3 though... like a lot.
What if someone simply doesn't like it and some complaints are actually valid points?
I have no personal experience with music related stuff on Macs nor AU, but there seem to be quite a few developers who at least don't seem to favor how things work on Mac

[apoclypse]

Hmm? big surprise, you have 20+ years experience coding for Windows, and almost none with Mac OS.

The problems I am referring to are caused by the macOS updates not FL Studio.

One of our team used to develop compilers for macOS. I don't know what you think you know about our development team, but it's very different today than it was 5 years ago. We have more than quadrupled in size and macOS full stack experience is extensive. Most recently, we were pleased to welcome Angus Hewlett as CTO.

One thing that is true, macOS is certainly a developer hostile environment.

Can you elaborate on how macOS is developer hostile? If it's true I would like to know how/why?

[Image-Line]

Can you elaborate on how macOS is developer hostile? If it's true I would like to know how/why?

OK FWIW I don't mean actively hostile. They certainly don't hate their developers. However there is a big difference between the focus of Apple and Microsoft re their OS updates and the impact that has on developers.

Microsoft focuses on the OS as a development platform and largely does what it can (although this is changing) to maintain forward compatibility for legacy applications. They leave it up to the software development community to provide the customer experience.

Apple is customer focussed. They make changes that are aimed at providing a UX they deem is the right and only one. This is commonly at the expense of the development community who need to run around and conform to the new standards, APIs or (subject of this thread) architecture. This happens about once every decade or so with Apple it seems.

The fact is. Apple OS updates break far more code than Windows updates. Often developers don't even know these problems are coming. Their software just stops working.

If you are making basic apps that do your taxes or something this is not really an issue. But, there is a reason you don't see a lot of DAWs with Apple Silicon support yet. Apple just broke a lot of stuff.

Yes Windows has ARM, but it was not (yet?) forced on the community as a fait accompli. Developers have no choice here. You need to rework all your code or sink. I would imagine plugin companies such as Native Instruments and WAVES are pulling their hair out. Large amounts of legacy code with developers who are probably long gone.

Apple really did an amazing job with Rosetta 2. So good it has lulled the customers into a sense of false security about what is happening on the development side. There is a lot of development man hours being burned and yet to be burned on this transition.

What will happen when Apple stops supporting Rosetta 2 will also be interesting to watch.

Anyhow, that's a developers perspective. Something that does not and should not concern the customers. Except that all this development went into supporting a platform change and not creating new products, features or experiences.