ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[aMUSEd]

didn't know the osmose, wow that is expensive for a controller, very niche product.

Not only a controller... It's also a 24 voice standalone hardware synth.

I presume there is a software editor though for the synth part given the keyboard itself doesn't have a lot of knobs and I know the synth is a modular so I would guess needs something like the Nord Modular G2 editor to get the most out of it?

[pdxindy]

didn't know the osmose, wow that is expensive for a controller, very niche product.

Not only a controller... It's also a 24 voice standalone hardware synth.

I presume there is a software editor though for the synth part given the keyboard itself doesn't have a lot of knobs and I know the synth is a modular so I would guess needs something like the Nord Modular G2 editor to get the most out of it?

Yeah, the EaganMatrix editor is installed on ones computer.

The extent to which one can tweak sounds on the synth itself is unclear. They have mainly focused on the keybed when promoting the synth. I'm assuming there will be some basic editing... envelope release time? Who knows really. But even if one could in theory edit every parameter from the synth, who the hell would ever want to? The EaganMatrix is challenging enough as it is

[BONES]

no, you don't understand- i can get freshly updated drivers for FireFace 800 that i bought 20 years ago.

Well, for starters, your FireFace uses an obsolete transfer protocol and needs a port that hasn't been on any new computer sold in the last 10 years. So great choice there, buddy. I assume, though, that it's compatible with Thunderbolt, is it? I imagine you need a special adapter, though, but I'm sure Apple will sell you one if you give them enough money. Not something I've ever had to worry about. Honestly, it's hard not to laugh that you are making an argument about support when you have a FireWire device. Dumbest choice ever or what?

But the original assertion was that it's worth paying thousands for an RME interface because they are one of the very few companies that support their full product line, old and new. So of course you can get updated drivers for your FireFace. That's a given, even if you can no longer plug it into your computer. What I've pointed out is that this behaviour is not unique to RME and is, in fact, common with most brands. I used my MIDIsport device to illustrate the point. Surely you can see that when even a sub-$100 product from a very mainstream company remains supported 20 years on, that paying RME money for that reason is just plain stupid.

I bought my first PC in 1995 and in all that time I have never had any product, neither a hardware device nor a software application, stop working because it was no longer supported. All my 32 bit applications still run in Windows 10, just like they always have. Even something like Autodesk Combustion, which was EOL'd in 2012, still installs and still runs as well as it ever did. I don't use it as much as I used to because it doesn't support a lot of file formats that are common these days so it has become obsolete before it's stopped working. That's how it is when you make the right choices.

It's not just macOS, it's also windows7, 10, blah blah. 2004 when FireFace800 was released was still windows XP era.

Yeah, and 1998, when MIDIman MIDIsport1x1 was released, it was the Windows 98 era, when Windows was still built on DOS. 23 years later, with new owners and a new name, M-Audio still provide drivers for that device. Same story with the Edirol UA-20 I purchased in 2002. Even though Edirol no longer exists, that $200 interface is still supported and I can still get current drivers for it, in both 32 and 64 bit. You think you need to pay a massive premium for this kind of continuity but, as I have clearly shown, you do not.

it isn't stupid of me to assume they'd be among first to support an apple ecosystem, given they had ARM apps dating back years.

I never said that was where you made a stupid decision. You do that every time you buy a new Mac. Because it doesn't matter how well Roli support you, Apple could, at any time, decide to deprecate a feature that Roli rely on to make all their stuff work. They don't hesitate to do it to their own products, so no third party provider is safe. I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson with your decision to go with FireWire.

I don't give a f**k about my legacy products either, that's why i don't buy shit from companies who deliberately make their stuff obsolete.

Yes you do, you have a Mac. Nobody is more deliberate in making their products obsolete than Apple. Nobody. In fact, if Apple didn't do it all the time and get away with it, I don't think it would have occurred to anyone else to even try.

RME is not one of them, that's why i don't bother buying any other interface.

Name a company that does, apart from Apple (obviously). I don't know one. Every peripheral I have ever bought still works and, AFAIK, is still fully supported. And I've owned a lot of different interfaces.

Seaboard RISE is not a 100$ cheap-shit controller, it was 800€ when it came out, and it was still sold and manufactured this year.

And it still works and is still fully supported if you made the right choices. Even if you didn't, it still runs on an M1 Mac and, from what I've read, Rosetta does a good enough job that doing all the work to support M1 natively might not be worth the effort. It's just something you might prefer, not something Roli, or anyone else, really needs to do. Of course, Apple will eventually deprecate Rosetta, but there's certainly no rush and Roli probably have more important things to worry about at the moment.

I'm absolutely not blaming apple for developers to be stupid slow in ARM adoption.

Of course you're not, because to do that you would have to admit that you made some very poor choices.

]Name one

I can't imagine a better unit than my Zoom U24. It is utterly silent in a way that no other interface I've owned is. Switch it on, switch off, it never makes a sound of it's own, the only signal you get is what you feed into it. The audio quality is brilliant, the low latency performance is great and it can run on batteries so it will work in just about any situation. It's designed for portability so you can throw it in a bag without having to worry about it, yet it weighs almost nothing. It's an amazing thing that only costs $175.

[zerocrossing]

"More specifically, the second law of thermodynamics states that “as one goes forward in time, the net entropy (degree of disorder) of any isolated or closed system will always increase (or at least stay the same).” ... Left unchecked disorder increases over time. Energy disperses, and systems dissolve into chaos."

software is done. you ate yourselves alive, and did it for greed.

You read a magazine article about entropy and didn’t understand it.

[Ploki]

a lot of f**king text

You seem to be confusing two terms.
SUPPORTED
and
STILL WORKING BY A MAGICAL COMBINATION OF CHANCES WITH NO INPUT FROM THE COMPANY.

[machinesworking]

a lot of f**king text

You seem to be confusing two terms.
SUPPORTED
and
STILL WORKING BY A MAGICAL COMBINATION OF CHANCES WITH NO INPUT FROM THE COMPANY.

He's not confusing the terms, he's creating strawman arguments to fit his narrative. Confusing implies he can learn or at least understand what your point is, he understands your point, but he cannot concede to the logic of it, that would be defeat, so strawman it is.

If you've ever wondered why people argue more on the internet than real life, this is one of the reasons. In person people at least pretend to understand what your point is, on the internet Lord Scorpion Viper will die for honor and truth!

[BONES]

Your opinion here is classic hedging, you're ignoring the point, the 286 CP from the 80's is worthless, the moog is not, and is worth 10x what it cost new.

If you'd prefer I could give you a list of 100 synths that are as good as worthless today but I didn't because you know as well as I do that your Memorymoog example is anything but typical. What, for example, do you reckon a second-hand Roland Fantom series synth would be worth today? I doubt you'd get more than about a quarter of what it was worth new. What about a Korg X-50, how much of your original investment do you reckon you'd get back on one of those today? Or a Yamaha CS2x? Or even something as well regarded as a Korg Triton.

You're misinformed here. Arm works better in the M1

You're missing the point. It's not about whether one ARM chip is better than another, it's about whether ARM is better than Intel or AMD and, overall, it isn't. In the future it is likely to be even less competitive, as Apple are already using a 5nm process, while Intel's 11th gen CPUs will shrink from 14nm to 11nm, with a roadmap to get down to 8nm in coming years.

Your ignorant hatred of Apple is clouding your ability to see where the future is headed.

I've explained before that I don't hate Apple any more than I hate Microsoft, they are just companies beholden to shareholders to make as much money as they possibly can, like any other company. It's the idiots who buy into their bullshit that get on my tits.

Good god you will literally obfuscate wildly to be "right". They have stopped making products, (RME for example), they have not stopped supporting them with drivers for modern OS's. This isn't hard to follow, you're just obsessed with "winning", at all cost. [

Pot? Kettle? Black? You are making unsubstantiated claims that you cannot possibly back up. How many times do I have to repeat myself before it sinks in? Everybody keeps supporting their old products! It's not something unique to RME, as you, or whoever it was, originally suggested and I have given you multiple examples to prove it. As a reason to waste all that money, it is pure bullshit. End of story.

Again, ignoring all the examples I gave of discontinued products by other companies that are not supported with new drivers, that in the case of Kore, will have issues with modern plug ins.

You haven't given a single example that I've seen, except maybe for irrelevant Mac thing which, as I explained, is down to Apple being c**ts, not to companies not wanting to support their products. Kore was brought up by someone else as an example of things that do keep working and you decided to tell everyone it doesn't when that guy is obviously still quite happy with his. It was something I looked into a couple of years ago and the problem isn't getting it to work, it's finding someone who is selling one with all the original software. It looks like people keep them because of the software that comes with them, which seems a bit strange if it doesn't work any more, doesn't it?

Going back to your favorite DAW, it's gone, you yourself admitted that it was starting to have issues with newer plug ins, this isn't rocket science, and you're just digging in on a ridiculous claim, that depreciated software will run just fine forever.

Again, it's you who is being ridiculous. Orion is being updated any more, just as your MemoryMoog will never support MIDI 2.0 but, just like your MemoryMoog, everything I ever did in it when it was still being supported works today. Every project I created in it, all the way back to 2002. If you want to see in chronological order, all the different "DAW"s I've had over the years, it looks like this -

1984 - TB303 x 2
1985 - Yamaha QX7
1987 - Korg SQD-1
1990 - Korg M1
1993 - Korg O1R/W
1998 - Korg Trinity
2001 - Orion
2019 - Cubase
2021 - Studio One.

As you can see, my hardware lasted, on average, less than three years before it became obsolete and effectively worthless to me. OTOH, my ITB solutions have lasted, on average, around seven years before they've become redundant and in need of replacement. And even then, they continue to work and remain valuable resources that I don't have to worry about. OTOH, I'd have needed to rent a garage to store all my old hardware if I had any expectation of it being useful after it had been replaced. Clearly not a viable solution, especially given all the proprietary solutions and obsolete storage formats that different things relied upon, from cassettes, to quick-disks to floppies, to zip drives (serial interface) and eventually SCSI. All now long dead, having had only a tiny fraction of the life my PC peripherals are enjoying.

Controller Editor already doesn't support Rig Kontrol 3 and Kore, among other older NI hardware.

You mean the current version doesn't but there's no need to use the current version, is there? If you need your Kore to keep running, you just don't update Controller Editor, like you stick to Windows 7 if you feel like it. In Windows-land we have a wonderful thing called "choice", something Apple would never allow.

Maybe what you don't understand is that, generally speaking, drivers for older versions of Windows work with newer versions of Windows. Microsoft broke it once, with Vista, but learned a very valuable lesson and have busted a gut to make sure all our old shit keeps working. So if you've got Win7 drivers for something, it's almost certain they'll work in Windows 10, too. That's 12 years of compatibility and counting, without having to worry about anything. Do you reckon you could get 12 years out of a MemoryMoog without something breaking?

So at some point you will have the choice of not being able to use new plug ins on your 15 year old PC and OS, or you will ditch the unsupported hardware.

Or you could just have one old PC and one new one. It's not like they cost a lot. You know, the way you don't sell one hardware synth just because you bought another one. You can choose to keep both. Exactly the same here.

Obfuscation again.

No, it's refutation, You said that Roli gear doesn't have internal memory or processing, I've told you that it does and explained how it works. I'll make you a video if you like. It completely disproves your assertion.

One out of dozens of possible configurations might work for you, but pretending it's anything near the built in presets on the SL or Linnstrument is just bizarre.

An app isn't necessarily a single configuration. The app I use, for example, has half-a-dozen different presets stored in it.

How easy would it be to set up each individual button on a Linnstrument with it's own colour and it's own function? Because someone has made an app that let's me do that with my Lightpad, either on a 4 x 4 grid or a 5 x 5. And just think, for the price of the cheapest Linnstrument, I could have a dozen Lightpads, each with a different app loaded. I could be playing Tetris on one of them while I used another to control the faders on the mixer in Studio One. Then I could have another one that I use to play Olga while another is is set to play Hexeract in the same arrangement. Two or three more could be dedicated to a standalone instance of Equator, one, or two connected, to play keys with MPE and the other to mimic the extra controls of a Seaboard Rise. All at the same time, all from a single USB cable and all for half the price of a Linnstrument. I find it hard to imagine a Linnstrument could do all of those things at once. So you can concentrate on limitations if you prefer, I like to explore possibilities.

None of that takes away from the value you get out of the Lightpad, but my point has been in this discussion clear, you should as a customer know what you're getting into, and again there are controllers that have more than limited use past software being developed for them.

Everything is limited after the company that makes it stops making it. Spare parts eventually dry up, etc. Linnstrument would be an even bigger gamble, as nobody sells them here in Australia so you'd have no chance of getting parts or repairs and no legal protection on what is a huge gamble (because you can't try it out first and it's something tactile, so you might spend all that money and hate it or you just can't make it work). You have to be 10 times more careful in choosing a hardware synth than you do anything connected to working ITB.

[Ploki]

You're missing the point. It's not about whether one ARM chip is better than another, it's about whether ARM is better than Intel or AMD and, overall, it isn't. In the future it is likely to be even less competitive, as Apple are already using a 5nm process, while Intel's 11th gen CPUs will shrink from 14nm to 11nm, with a roadmap to get down to 8nm in coming years.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Intel-CPU ... processing

Since 2009, however, "node" has become a commercial name for marketing purposes[1] that indicates new generations of process technologies, without any relation to gate length, metal pitch or gate pitch.[2][3][4] For example, GlobalFoundries' 7 nm processes are similar to Intel's 10 nm process, thus the conventional notion of a process node has become blurred.[5]


Intel’s chips will shrink to 11nm in 2017, at least according to their own plans.

Except we’re on 14nm+++

Biggest advances in apple’s chips are architectural, not from manufacturing

[whyterabbyt]

What I've pointed out is that this behaviour is not unique to RME and is, in fact, common with most brands. I used my MIDIsport device to illustrate the point.

M-Audio dont actually illustrate that point at all, as they have abandoned driver support for tons of devices. Windows 8 or 10 support for the devices they classify as 'legacy' is rare, especially for their audio interfaces, moreso still for Firewire devices.
They dont consider any of the MIDIsport devices except the Anniversary editions of the 2x2 and 4x4 to be current, and they havent actually produced new drivers for any of the MIDISport series since 2013.
And that's their PC support. Their Mac support is worse.

Meanwhile, RME have OSX 11 M1-compatible drivers for their Firewire 400 devices. That's a world of difference.

Supporting legacy devices with continuous up to date driver support is not common. The notion that M-Audio are an example that proves it is, is about as ironic as it gets.

[machinesworking]

You're misinformed here. Arm works better in the M1

You're missing the point. It's not about whether one ARM chip is better than another, it's about whether ARM is better than Intel or AMD and, overall, it isn't. In the future it is likely to be even less competitive, as Apple are already using a 5nm process, while Intel's 11th gen CPUs will shrink from 14nm to 11nm, with a roadmap to get down to 8nm in coming years.

Holy crap that has to be one of the most uninformed things I've ever read by you. You're equating larger nm dies with better CPU's?

Plus, I've read your posts on this before, you're completely incapable of comparing the current 1st generation M1 to what every single reputable outfit should compare it to, the 6 core i7 mobile chips. the reason for this is simple, it's a mobile chip, it's only got 4 performance cores, the four efficiency cores pretty much add up to one performance core speed wise. This without any BS gives the advantage to Intel, and they get skunked badly.

This is why the entire industry is talking about Arm chips in their future. The SOC design is near impossible with chips as hot as the x86 architecture demands. Thermals count, and only people with actual skin in the game, or emotional fools, are ignoring what these chips mean in the coming years.

It's becoming increasingly hard to take you seriously, you're so emotionally involved in winning you're making laughable mistakes like thinking smaller die means less powerful CPUs. The truth is the exact opposite, Intel is getting it's ass handed to it because thermals count, Apples arm chips can actually operate on 5nm and 3 in the future, Intels cannot, because they require much more energy to run.

None of this will stay as only Apples process, Microsoft are designing their own Arm SOC chip and at some point they will match Apple's speed and efficiency, it's how the industry works. It's just funny watching your gesticulating and terrible logic because it's I think literally impossible for you to admit Apple did anything right.

[machinesworking]

You're missing the point. It's not about whether one ARM chip is better than another, it's about whether ARM is better than Intel or AMD and, overall, it isn't. In the future it is likely to be even less competitive, as Apple are already using a 5nm process, while Intel's 11th gen CPUs will shrink from 14nm to 11nm, with a roadmap to get down to 8nm in coming years.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Intel-CPU ... processing

Since 2009, however, "node" has become a commercial name for marketing purposes[1] that indicates new generations of process technologies, without any relation to gate length, metal pitch or gate pitch.[2][3][4] For example, GlobalFoundries' 7 nm processes are similar to Intel's 10 nm process, thus the conventional notion of a process node has become blurred.[5]


Intel’s chips will shrink to 11nm in 2017, at least according to their own plans.

Except we’re on 14nm+++

Biggest advances in apple’s chips are architectural, not from manufacturing

It's both, or all three apparently, at least from what I've read. TSMC can get smaller nm even on x86, but x86 is thermally hotter by design, so SOC design is harder. So on top of the Arm design being better in most ways to x86 in terms of speed, and the SOC allowing for more speed, there's TSMC having a better fab process than Intel.

This is why I'm sure Apple are frustrated beyond belief at the chip shortage, their big chance to skunk everyone for a few years with these advantages is massively hindered by supply chain issues, and Cook is a supply chain guy. Hope he has a good mental health plan.

[rasmusklump]

RME are absolutely outstanding in bringing drivers for new operating system versions - MS and Apple - for even very, very old devices. To argue against that is laughable...
Steinberg already abandoned much newer interfaces and let their users in the alone cold...

[whyterabbyt]

Same story with the Edirol UA-20 I purchased in 2002. Even though Edirol no longer exists, that $200 interface is still supported and I can still get current drivers for it, in both 32 and 64 bit.

There are no drivers listed for current operating systems at the UA-20 driver page. According to that, there's been no version of Windows explicitly supported since Windows 7, and no new version of OSX since 10.6. ie there's been no new 'current drivers' since 2009.

https://www.roland.com/uk/support/by_pr ... s_drivers/

[Double Tap]

"More specifically, the second law of thermodynamics states that “as one goes forward in time, the net entropy (degree of disorder) of any isolated or closed system will always increase (or at least stay the same).” ... Left unchecked disorder increases over time. Energy disperses, and systems dissolve into chaos."

software is done. you ate yourselves alive, and did it for greed.

You read a magazine article about entropy and didn’t understand it.

Surely the second law of KVRmodynamics should be "As one goes forward in time, the net entropy (degree of discussion of Apple products by BONES) of any thread will always increase".

[pinki]

Ha this thread is turning in to a classic.
Bones IS right. About absolutely everything he has said. All of his knowledge comes from years of experience and he IS THEREFORE right.
Actually I do think he is right about Apple/Windows..I mean Apple do not care about their creatives like they did one time long long ago. I imagine if I'd gone the Windows route back in the day I'd be sitting proud in the Windows camp right now. I mean Apple screw their devs over time and time again OS9 to OS10..Rosetta..64bit only...M1, Metal graphics etc, and all the OS non-compatibility shit we have to go through all the time, it's just really tiresome. I cannot afford two new Macs every 5 years.