ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[Ploki]

Ha this thread is turning in to a classic.
Bones IS right. About absolutely everything he has said. All of his knowledge comes from years of experience and he IS THEREFORE right.
Actually I do think he is right about Apple/Windows..I mean Apple do not care about their creatives like they did one time long long ago. I imagine if I'd gone the Windows route back in the day I'd be sitting proud in the Windows camp right now. I mean Apple screw their devs over time and time again OS9 to OS10..Rosetta..64bit only...M1, Metal graphics etc, and all the OS non-compatibility shit we have to go through all the time, it's just really tiresome. I cannot afford two new Macs every 5 years.

can you not

[BONES]

There are no drivers listed for current operating systems at the UA-20 driver page. According to that, there's been no version of Windows explicitly supported since Windows 7, and no new version of OSX since 10.6. ie there's been no new 'current drivers' since 2009.

Windows 7 drivers for anything will work with Windows 10 and probably Windows 11, too. My bandmate used the UA-20 with Windows 10 for a couple of years, no problem. He only bought something else when he needed more inputs. That's why Windows makes so much sense - everything keeps working.

[rasmusklump]

That's simply not true.
There is a good chance that they will work, but there are many that won't.

[rasmusklump]

Wich is better than anything Mac though..

[BONES]

So on top of the Arm design being better in most ways to x86 in terms of speed, and the SOC allowing for more speed, there's TSMC having a better fab process than Intel.

But if that doesn't equate to any real world benefits, and it doesn't, then it's irrelevant. Core i9 and the fastest Ryzens still outperform the M1 and M1 powered Macs don't even break any battery life records (which really surprised me). The only area where M1 does ever-so-slightly better is in single-core performance. Everywhere else it is behind the competition. Not by much, but definitely behind. Check out the benchmark results HERE. Note that in at least some of the tests, they are comparing to already published benchmarks for the M1 powered Mac laptop so it's not like they've done anything to fudge its results. The real world tests towards the bottom of the page are, I think, the most useful.

[BONES]

M-Audio dont actually illustrate that point at all, as they have abandoned driver support for tons of devices. Windows 8 or 10 support for the devices they classify as 'legacy' is rare, especially for their audio interfaces, moreso still for Firewire devices.

Firstly, why would you continue to support a standard that was a) never popular and b) abandoned years ago? But mostly, you're just saying stuff, how does anyone know it's true? I can prove that my MIDIsport 1x1 still works, along with all my old I/O devices -

MIDIsport 1 x 1

MIDISport.jpg

Edirol PCR-1

PCR-1.jpg

Line6 Toneport KB37

KB37.jpg

Novation Ultranova

Ultranova.jpg

Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

Scarlett2i2.jpg

Elektron Analog Keys (Overbridge)

Overbridge.jpg

Zoom U24

U24.jpg

UR44c

UR44C.jpg

Supporting legacy devices with continuous up to date driver support is not common.

In that case, I must be the luckiest son-of-a-bitch on the planet! Although Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation, the correct way to interpret the evidence presented, is that I am right and you are just plain wrong.

[BONES]

RME are absolutely outstanding in bringing drivers for new operating system versions - MS and Apple - for even very, very old devices. To argue against that is laughable...

My only argument is that this is a very stupid reason to spend 10 times more than you need to on something. Look at the list above - the price of all those devices combined, except for the two synths (obviously) is still way less than half the cost of the cheapest FireFace so it wouldn't matter in the slightest if 90% of them had stopped working, I'd still be miles ahead financially. But given that they all still work, the justification looks even less credible, doesn't it?

[whyterabbyt]

Firstly, why would you continue to support a standard that was a) never popular and b) abandoned years ago?

Well, that's an ironic question considering you were insistent that that sort of thing was 'common'

Anyway, its completely irrelevant as to why RME do continue to support it, they do, and its not common.

If you want to find out why they do, go ask them. Just dont pretend what they're doing is common.

But mostly, you're just saying stuff, how does anyone know it's true?

Well, Im 'saying stuff' that can be confirmed to a visit to the appropriate website. You're 'saying stuff' that's just your opinion.

I can prove that my MIDIsport 1x1 still works, along with all my old I/O devices -

Stop moving the goalposts. Whether it works for you or not is irrelevant to the point; ithey've not written new drivers since 2013 and that's not 'current support'.

In that case, I must be the luckiest son-of-a-bitch on the planet! Although Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation, the correct way to interpret the evidence presented, is that I am right and you are just plain wrong.

The evidence says there have been no drivers since 2013. Its not 'the simplest explanation' to say that that means there is current support for those drivers, its just a lie, basically. Absolute basic dishonesty.

But do feel free to tie yourself in knots avoiding the fact that not providing drivers for a device for 8 years doesnt count as 'current support.' Maybe you could refer to a Wikipedia article that says the exact opposite of what you say it says. Again.

[whyterabbyt]

There are no drivers listed for current operating systems at the UA-20 driver page. According to that, there's been no version of Windows explicitly supported since Windows 7, and no new version of OSX since 10.6. ie there's been no new 'current drivers' since 2009.

Windows 7 drivers for anything will work with Windows 10 and probably Windows 11, too.

Firstly, that's provably not true for all Windows device drivers.

Secondly, the fact that those drivers work doesn't change the fact that I was specifically responding to your statement ' I can still get current drivers for it' when those drivers are more than a decade old.

2009 is not 'current'. You're using old drivers that still work., and that's a very different thing, especially when the very f**king specific context is you arguing that RME's provision of actual current drivers is 'common.'

[whyterabbyt]

MIDIsport 1 x 1

Thanks for the evidence that there are no current or Windows 10 drivers for the MIDISport 1x1 listed at M-Audio.

Edirol PCR-1

Thanks for the evidence that there are no current or Windows 10 drivers for the PCR-1 listed at Roland.

Line6 Toneport KB37

Thanks for the evidence that there are no current or Windows 10 drivers for the TonePort listed at Line6

Novation Ultranova

Thanks for the picture. I guess you didnt click the 'see more details' link to avoid revealing the fact that there are no current or Windows 10 drivers for the UltraNova listed at Novation.

Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

Thanks for a picture which proves absolutely nothing.

Elektron Analog Keys (Overbridge)

Thanks for a picture which proves nothing.

Zoom U24

Thanks for proving that a device that came out a year after Windows 10 has Windows 10 support. Notice how it doesnt have Windows 7 drivers? Big clue, to something that, I suspect.

UR44c

Thanks for proving that a device that is 2 years old has Windows 10 support. No, really, well done on that one, I think we were all worried about that.

Thanks for that evidence; from it Occam's Razor clearly suggest the simplest explanation, ie that current support for devices that arent current (ie more than a few years old) just isnt that common. The correct way to interpret the evidence presented, is that I am right and you are just plain wrong.

[Ploki]

But if that doesn't equate to any real world benefits, and it doesn't, then it's irrelevant. Core i9 and the fastest Ryzens still outperform the M1 and M1 powered Macs don't even break any battery life records (which really surprised me). The only area where M1 does ever-so-slightly better is in single-core performance. Everywhere else it is behind the competition. Not by much, but definitely behind. Check out the benchmark results HERE. Note that in at least some of the tests, they are comparing to already published benchmarks for the M1 powered Mac laptop so it's not like they've done anything to fudge its results. The real world tests towards the bottom of the page are, I think, the most useful.

There is plenty of real world benefits, even according to developers.

Yes the results are telling.
since M1 is the only chip of the bunch that's f**king passively cooled.

[machinesworking]

So on top of the Arm design being better in most ways to x86 in terms of speed, and the SOC allowing for more speed, there's TSMC having a better fab process than Intel.

But if that doesn't equate to any real world benefits, and it doesn't, then it's irrelevant. Core i9 and the fastest Ryzens still outperform the M1 and M1 powered Macs don't even break any battery life records (which really surprised me). The only area where M1 does ever-so-slightly better is in single-core performance. Everywhere else it is behind the competition. Not by much, but definitely behind. Check out the benchmark results HERE. Note that in at least some of the tests, they are comparing to already published benchmarks for the M1 powered Mac laptop so it's not like they've done anything to fudge its results. The real world tests towards the bottom of the page are, I think, the most useful.

So if you're not aware of the architecture of the M1 here's the deal, it's a four core chip with four regular chips, and four "helper" cores. The four "efficiency" cores are essentially 1/4 the power of the "performance" cores. So that it can hang at all with 6 or 8 beefy AMD or Intel cores is absolutely impressive.

This is the first of a generation, and it's obvious to me you're doing it again. You're letting your annoyance at Apple get in the way of the actual tech that's been introduced. The power consumption difference and the thermal difference in general is why everyone in the industry with interest in tech is excited by this. This isn't about looking at this baby step first chip and comparing it to 8 beefy cores from an AMD chip that takes 4x the power, it's about seeing very clearly where this can lead, since it's only the first of it's kind, not a shining example of years of x86 mobile development. Plus most of those tests were done in Rosetta 2, Apples x86 emulation for the M1 that costs serious CPU cycles.

Again the amusing in a sad way part is the chip shortage has had to have impacted Apples ability to roll out the next generation much faster bigger version of the M1. Which of course lets everyone else get that much more development time into competing with their SOC.

Oh and you're wrong about battery life. I'm willing to bet any math done comparing size of battery to number of chips etc. would result in the M1 skunking the rest. You can always throw a bigger battery into a larger chasy and

[pdxindy]

So if you're not aware of the architecture of the M1 here's the deal, it's a four core chip with four regular chips, and four "helper" cores. The four "efficiency" cores are essentially 1/4 the power of the "performance" cores. So that it can hang at all with 6 or 8 beefy AMD or Intel cores is absolutely impressive.

Is anyone putting those beefy Intel or AMD processors into something the size of a Macbook Air without a fan?

[pdxindy]

The power consumption difference and the thermal difference in general is why everyone in the industry with interest in tech is excited by this.

The easiest way to know that the M1 and Apple Silicon is a big deal is by observing how other companies are following suit as fast as they can. Microsoft is going to do the same thing as Apple as quickly as they can get there.

Only random people on the internet have the luxury of denying what Apple has done.

[machinesworking]

The power consumption difference and the thermal difference in general is why everyone in the industry with interest in tech is excited by this.

The easiest way to know that the M1 and Apple Silicon is a big deal is by observing how other companies are following suit as fast as they can. Microsoft is going to do the same thing as Apple as quickly as they can get there.

Only random people on the internet have the luxury of denying what Apple has done.

Yep, the luxury of being wrong. I've never gotten total partisan logic, when Windows has multitasking and OS 9 did not, I wasn't making excuses for OS 9 or denying what Microsoft had done.

Thermals seem to escape people, which is weird because it's pretty much mechanical logic. A thinner less heat and energy producing chip will be able to be ramped up to higher speeds and larger core counts. It's why Apple switched to Intel x86 not when they were completely skunking the IBM G5, but when it was obvious they would in the future.