ROLI's writing on the wall happened

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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KVRAF
2244 posts since 8 Dec, 2008 from Global Cowboy

Post Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:58 pm

Well....the answer is quite simply really...

Give the Roli keyboard to your grandmother in exchange for the grand piano :)
No auto tune and iLok free...

KVRAF
7187 posts since 7 Mar, 2003

Post Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:36 pm

Ou_Tis wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:06 pm
Since there won't be any BF sale on Seaboard Blocks this year I decided to get a mint used one for $365. Am I a fool for continuing to pour time and money into Seaboard Blocks?... maybe I should try to transfer my thousands of hours of Seaboard Block practice to a more "normal" keyboard. (OTOH who knows, if they do stop being produced maybe they'll eventually grow in value... doubt they're rare enough for that though.)

What are the odds of an improved Lumi build by BF?... I do think keyboard learning programs like Melodics are hampered a little by having you look at the screen rather than the keys (unless your goal is to play without looking). And the downwards scrolling starts f**king up my visual field with the waterfall illusion (everything drifting upwards) after about an hour. I hate the feel of my Novation keyboard but I loved the keys on my grandmother's baby grand (which she wouldn't let me play).
If you've got the space, there are quite a few Fatar weighted midi keyboards on eBay and the like, which will offer something very much like a piano. Couple that with Noire by Native Instruments (probably my most favourite library released in the last decade!) and you're laughing.

I wouldn't be spending anymore money on the Blocks eco-system.
My Youtube Channel - Wires Dream Disasters :: My Band - Tacoma Narrows Bridge Disaster
Disclosure: I'm an audio engineer, product owner, and content developer working for inMusic Brands

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:54 pm

Ou_Tis wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:06 pm
(OTOH who knows, if they do stop being produced maybe they'll eventually grow in value... doubt they're rare enough for that though.)
It has a non-replacable battery and software dependency. I very much doubt it will increase in value.
365$ is insanely expensive for a used block imo.

I have a developer block and the button part has a dead battery. it won't turn on anymore :lol:
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KVRist
189 posts since 18 Jul, 2021

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:12 am

Ou_Tis wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:06 pm
What are the odds of an improved Lumi build by BF?... I do think keyboard learning programs like Melodics are hampered a little by having you look at the screen rather than the keys (unless your goal is to play without looking). And the downwards scrolling starts f**king up my visual field with the waterfall illusion (everything drifting upwards) after about an hour.
i think melodics' approach has problems that go way deeper than that. i tried out the finger-drumming part of it (though i did have a play with the keyboard exercises to see how they'd done them). the problem lies in trying to gamify things. i found i was completing the exercises but wound up still not having basic skills in actual finger-drumming. i was better of just translating the basic exercises in a book (the art of the drummer) into finger exercises with a little help from some finger-drummer videos on how to split the parts between the hands/fingers.

if you're going to learn to sight-read or play fast two-handed, you need to be able to feel your way around the keyboard anyway. but, yeah, that waterfall makes life harder for beginners than it needs to be. and it's way too unforgiving on timing, at least at first. there's no real room for rhythmic feel, which is probably a consequence of trying to get software to score things.

to be fair to melodics, they do listen to suggestions. but it's a problem to address it when the core concept is a bit misguided (imo).

to bring it back to lumi: this is the problem that roli is going to face if it's serious about the "peloton for piano" thing. you can't treat music tuition as though it's just the same as a hill climb on a bike at a certain number of reps per minute.
Last edited by gaggle of hermits on Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
20037 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:04 am

Ploki wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:54 pm
Ou_Tis wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:06 pm
(OTOH who knows, if they do stop being produced maybe they'll eventually grow in value... doubt they're rare enough for that though.)
It has a non-replacable battery and software dependency. I very much doubt it will increase in value.
365$ is insanely expensive for a used block imo.

I have a developer block and the button part has a dead battery. it won't turn on anymore :lol:
I wouldn't invest in the Roli stuff at this point. If it were the only thing available, okay then, but it isn't. $365 for a Block is a chunk of cash. There are a variety of MPE controllers these days. A year or two from now if the company has remade itself and is stable and offering good support, then that is a different consideration.

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:05 am

i love how ROLI keeps pushing spam mail.
"Create a kick in equator!"
lol as if
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KVRAF
2634 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from People's Republic of Minnesota

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:50 am

Man, the Linnstrument looks better and better every single day.

Has anyone had a chance to use the Keith McMillan K-board Pro 4 by chance? The music stores in my area are useless for in-stock items for demoing.

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KVRAF
20037 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:46 am

masterhiggins wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:50 am
Man, the Linnstrument looks better and better every single day.

Has anyone had a chance to use the Keith McMillan K-board Pro 4 by chance? The music stores in my area are useless for in-stock items for demoing.
I had a chance to play the original K-board in a store some years back and was not particularly impressed by it in terms of feel and sensitivity, but it has changed a lot since then.

Roger Linn did an exceptional job with the Linnstrument. Doesn't need any software installed on the computer so no chance of future issues or if someone decides to use Linux. The firmware is open source so nothing proprietary to get locked out of. The Linnstrument is user repairable and is easy to take apart. If I wanted to replace the playing surface for whatever reason, I wouldn't hesitate to do it myself. He made it about as future proof as possible!

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KVRAF
2634 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from People's Republic of Minnesota

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm

Yeah I like how customer-friendly Roger Linn has been in general. It seems like he tries pretty hard to keep his customers happy. That’s a huge thing in today’s world of electronics.

I haven’t been able to demo a linnstrument, either. Are there any downsides? I can’t seem to find any so far. I plan to order one of them in the next couple months after I sell some stocks.

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KVRAF
20037 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:52 pm

masterhiggins wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm
Yeah I like how customer-friendly Roger Linn has been in general. It seems like he tries pretty hard to keep his customers happy. That’s a huge thing in today’s world of electronics.

I haven’t been able to demo a linnstrument, either. Are there any downsides? I can’t seem to find any so far. I plan to order one of them in the next couple months after I sell some stocks.
Before Covid, Roger would make an effort to find someone with a Linnstrument near you who would let you come over and demo it. Incredible service!

The downside is that any design has its pro's and con's. If you have invested lots of years on keyboard playing, it doesn't immediately translate to the Linnstrument design/layout. Something like the Seaboard Rise will be more immediately familiar to keyboard players.

(Trying to come up with something here...) Sometimes I have wished that each pad were bigger for slower playing... but if they were, then there would be times I wished they were smaller like that actual size for faster playing :hihi:

I think it is awesome! The UI is freakin brilliant. Best ever!!

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KVRAF
3746 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:38 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:52 pm
masterhiggins wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm
Yeah I like how customer-friendly Roger Linn has been in general. It seems like he tries pretty hard to keep his customers happy. That’s a huge thing in today’s world of electronics.

I haven’t been able to demo a linnstrument, either. Are there any downsides? I can’t seem to find any so far. I plan to order one of them in the next couple months after I sell some stocks.
Before Covid, Roger would make an effort to find someone with a Linnstrument near you who would let you come over and demo it. Incredible service!

The downside is that any design has its pro's and con's. If you have invested lots of years on keyboard playing, it doesn't immediately translate to the Linnstrument design/layout. Something like the Seaboard Rise will be more immediately familiar to keyboard players.

(Trying to come up with something here...) Sometimes I have wished that each pad were bigger for slower playing... but if they were, then there would be times I wished they were smaller like that actual size for faster playing :hihi:

I think it is awesome! The UI is freakin brilliant. Best ever!!
the biggest differences besides what pdxindy already mentioned is in the way velocity works, since it's a hard pad, not soft rubber. That's IMO the major difference is getting used to that. I think it's better with the slide feature but sounds that are set up for the Roli have to be adjusted for the much faster slide in the Linnstrument. Pitch is not even arguably better in the Linnstrument, pitching a whole chord down a whole octave is possible without engaging slide or losing relative pitch between notes etc.

Default it's set up like a bass and best to think of it like a bass at first, chords are stranger to do on a set up with tiny pads set up in fourths, but polyphonic playing isn't that hard.

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KVRAF
20037 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:32 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:38 pm
Default it's set up like a bass and best to think of it like a bass at first, chords are stranger to do on a set up with tiny pads set up in fourths, but polyphonic playing isn't that hard.
Polyphonic playing is easy on the Linnstrument... it just requires a different mindset than a piano keyboard.

I can reach a wider range of notes with one hand. It is easy to transpose up as there are no white and black keys. It is also easy with one hand to slide from say a G major up to an A minor. I find the Linnstrument really easy to play fast cause notes are so close to each other.

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KVRAF
5808 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Post Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:53 am

We had a chance to play the Osmose yesterday on Superbooth here in Berlin.
And it's even better than what we expected!
The keys feel really great with a smooth surface that isn't "plasticy" but very nice to the touch. The range of both pressure and then aftertouch is amazing. You can adjust if the sound starts from the merest touch of the key or only when you press it down fully like a piano - and everything in between.
Key resistance is less hard than what I expected from the early Sonic State video, very pleasant and really playable.
The left-right movement range isn't very large, but perfect for vibrato. And with the pitch glide, you can do precise larger pitch bends.
The instrument looks and feels gorgeous. The screen is very sharp, bright and precise. Very good readability.
You understand the layout of the menus instantly, the knobs and buttons are super intuitive.
The sound of the Eagan Matrix is fantastic and fits with the keyboard perfectly.
The team took great care to explain things and show us all the features, even though in the background Sonic State did their video with them :-)
The best I can say about the Osmose is, that within minutes you forgot all the technical aspects and would just play. It's so intuitive and naturally implemented.
Whoa! :-)

The embodme Erae Touch - while interesting and with a ton of options and features - somehow didn't really do anything for us in comparison later on.

In fact, after this encounter with beauty early in the day, we didn't get excited by anything else on Superbooth.

Until we decided to check out the Haaken Continuum as well in the evening (we had never touched one before).
And while my GF (she pre-ordered the Osmose) preferred the physical keys (she's a piano player), I personally fell in love with the smooth and extremely sensitive surface of the Continuum. Will probably not be able to afford one, but between those two companies, I personally think that Expressive playing has been solved, no matter if you prefer smooth surfaces or keys.
Throw in the Linnstrument and the range is pretty well covered.

So yeah, I personally won't miss Roli at all.

Cheers,

Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi
ScreenDream|Thomas Helzle 8) Twitter

KVRist
47 posts since 15 Jun, 2018

Post Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:50 am

Went to Expressive E's booth at SB and saw a VERY impressively demo of Osmose.

The maker let it slip that if market adoption of Osmose goes well and certain sales number are met, a smaller version is on the horizon. That one will only be an MPE controller, no synth engine included.

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KVRAF
20037 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:41 am

jules99 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:50 am
Went to Expressive E's booth at SB and saw a VERY impressively demo of Osmose.

The maker let it slip that if market adoption of Osmose goes well and certain sales number are met, a smaller version is on the horizon. That one will only be an MPE controller, no synth engine included.
The recent demos have been impressive. The Osmose is so expressive and it looks very natural. The pressure weighted portamento is especially effective for leads. For sure more natural and nuanced than what can be done with pitch slides on the Linnstrument or Rise because it is integral to the playing.

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