FL Studio 20.8.4 Released inc. Apple Silicon Support

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
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KVRAF
3752 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:58 pm

Image-Line wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:27 pm
We defended our position that - Developing for Apple is a hostile environment (compared to Microsoft) because Apple (often) breaks your code and you never know when and where it's going to happen.
So in total fairness, again one of my best friends worked at Apple for 20 years, so I'm well aware of how they do things. This isn't true, at least the part about them breaking your code without warning, they give plenty of warning. Your example of OpenGl is a perfect example, you presented it like they out of the blue are going to drop it, it's been on the chopping block for years. Almost all the time Apple gives soft shouts about what is coming in the future huge hints to maybe think about switching to Metal, or in the past away from CodeWarrior and towards Xcode when they moved to x86 from PPC. Mistakes or funky bugs are another story, I'm sure they're guilty of that, but they don't deprecate code and drop it the next day, they always drop screaming hints.
The discussion that followed is hardly an argument and seems like a robust exchange of opinions and points of view.
For sure, I'm not at all offended. I wouldn't call it an argument, more like a discussion with some debate and some drama, but hey KVR! :lol:
If anything, we are trying to help people understand why macOS solutions are not always quick to arrive. Its difficult.
I 100% have zero issues with people expressing this. IMO Apple are notorious for slash and burn policies on old code, they get rid of things I love all the time, and I'm not totally a fan of that. They also constantly are reworking things compared to Microsoft, and I do get how that can be annoying..

I firmly believe that in the next 3-5 years Microsoft is going to pull a similar move though. There's no way around it. At some point the design ideas that Apple pulled together aren't some magic apple juice, it's just logical ways of ramping up performance, and Microsoft like all of us have been relying on pure chip muscle to keep the game moving forward. Arm on SOC is going to be hard to beat moving forward except in cases of servers etc. Even there the current fastest super computer is an Arm system. Part of the equation is OS to chip though, so Windows on Arm is going to get revamped with Microsofts own chips in the coming years and MS will have to force the hands of developers a bit, there's no way around that. They can't afford to have portables from Apple completely skunk them, and if they don't match it somehow that's exactly what will happen.

When they do if you're here talking about how great the MS x86 emulation layer is for their Arm chips or how seamless they did it, I will be here to remind you of your whole stance here. :x (this is sort of a straw man, so take it for what it is, ribbing! :) )

Oh and as far as being loyal to a corporation is concerned, if 5 years from now Microsoft announces their own native Arm chip touch Surface with twice the power of the current 8 core Zenbook Duo, that you can't fry an egg on, I'll be first in line to buy it. That's all if Apple continues to keep iOS and their touch tech separate from Mac OS, which is possible. IMO touch is where MS should be leading the game, but development in it has never been heavy enough.

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KVRist
409 posts since 23 Jun, 2012

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:44 am

Hi Image Line. Can you say something about the new VST idea? Will there be an improved FL-Studio VST version or even better a stable Minihost Modular? I love the IL plugins and would love to use them in another DAW.
I'm afraid to say goodbye forever, not because I bought it, I was happy to support you, but there is just so much good in your synth concept. I would be happy to hear that you are working on a solution to integrate FL Studio synths into another DAW without the existing problems.

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KVRAF
16108 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:01 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:34 am
Teksonik wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:44 am
With Win 11 not be able to run on millions and millions of perfectly capable machines
It's perfectly possible to disable the TPM requirement for W11. There are already articles on it. It remains to be seen if MS will stick to that requirement or if they will ease up on it.
Did you not read the list of supported CPUs ? It leaves off many capable processors. (and not every computer is used to make music or edit videos)

Sure people have been able to install Win 11 on unsupported systems but....

"We recently reported about Microsoft's efforts to allow users to install Windows 11 with ISO installers on unsupported computers, such as those that don't have a supported processor. However, according to a report by PCWorld, Microsoft has now clarified that even though you can install the operating system on these unsupported systems, the company will disable the Windows Update functionality. That drastically reduces the number of users that will actually benefit from installing the operating system on unsupported hardware.

However, the loss of Windows Update could be a crippling blow for those looking to update older systems. Naturally, it isn't feasible to re-install the operating system as each new update for the operating system is released, meaning it's an unuseful kludge to install via ISO if you plan to use the operating system for a personal rig.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/unsup ... ont-update
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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KVRAF
16108 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:24 am

chk071 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:38 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:34 am
Teksonik wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:44 am
With Win 11 not be able to run on millions and millions of perfectly capable machines
It's perfectly possible to disable the TPM requirement for W11. There are already articles on it. It remains to be seen if MS will stick to that requirement or if they will ease up on it.
My guess is that they will. MS alyways were into market share, so, I can't really imagine them going the other direction with Windows 11.
Windows 10 also requires TPM since a couple of versions. You know? Right?? ;)

You know I didn't mention TPM at all right ?? :wink:

It is not the only requirement for Win 11. Again read the list of supported CPUs.

Is it possible M$ will capitulate and change the requirements to allow millions of computers that are currently running Win 10 to also run Win 11 ?

Certainly it's possible but as it stands right now Win 11 will not run on millions of capable systems.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

KVRAF
29555 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:49 am

I know what they stated as system requirements. My point is: We should all wait until Windows 11 is released, and see then. Even some people with insight to Microsoft's internals (I'm frequenting some Windows blogs and forums) say that it will most likely not be as strict as it sounds like. No promises, but, from what I read, it rather looks like those are more guidelines and "We won't give support if something goes wrong on unsupported hardware" stuff.

After all, Microsoft isn't Apple, and, as I said, they were always into compatibility and market share, so, I doubt they will completely go the other way now.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRian
840 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:57 am

And even if: who cares.
Win 10 will fully be supported until at least 2025 for those who are afraid that they will suddenly be open to all the attacks from the internet for whatever reason.
Those who can't run it can stay with 10 (or seven, or XP...) which will continue to work beautifully, or be the real renegades who f**k the system and switch to Linux or OS X
It's nothing more than tools to click somewhere and open some application, nothing to bash each others skulls for.
I don't really care which OS my next system will have (which's purchase i'm not able to procrastinate for much longer, so it's probably going to be Win 10, but won't mind if it's 11 at all, as long as it for whatever reason won't break the functionality of programs i'm using)
There's no Logic to Windows

KVRAF
29555 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:03 am

FapFilter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:57 am
And even if: who cares.
Win 10 will fully be supported until at least 2025 for those who are afraid that they will suddenly be open to all the attacks from the internet for whatever reason.
Yeah. That's a thing most seem to forget, that they can go on usign Windows 10, and that it's EOL in 2025. :)

Plenty of time to get a new computer until then.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRAF
32810 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:07 am

Faiky wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:44 am
Will there be an improved FL-Studio VST version or even better a stable Minihost Modular?
Yes this would be ideal for me too - a stable Minihost that still works as plugin and loads ImageLine Native plugins seeing as none of the plugins I bought are being developed any more (and neither can I sell them).

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KVRAF
16108 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:31 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:49 am
I know what they stated as system requirements. My point is: We should all wait until Windows 11 is released, and see then. Even some people with insight to Microsoft's internals (I'm frequenting some Windows blogs and forums) say that it will most likely not be as strict as it sounds like. No promises, but, from what I read, it rather looks like those are more guidelines and "We won't give support if something goes wrong on unsupported hardware" stuff.

After all, Microsoft isn't Apple, and, as I said, they were always into compatibility and market share, so, I doubt they will completely go the other way now.
Well Widows 11's initial release date is October 5th which is a little more than three weeks away so if they're going to change something it will have to be soon.

I think they'll get sufficient push back after release that they'll have to do something. Whether it is their intention or not they're basically saying that Win 10 is more efficient than Win 11 since it can run on all those excluded CPUs. Yes I know the Win 11 restrictions are supposed to be more for security but then they're basically saying Win 10 is not secure (which we already know).

I mean what does Win 11 really bring other than UI tweaks (to make it look more like some Linux distros) like rounded corners?

I frequent Windows and security forums as well and so far this Win 11 update has been a public relations bungle. We'll see what the future holds but even on the one out of ten computers I own that currently qualifies for Win 11 I won't be doing the "update" for a very long time after release. Let the early adopters work out the inevitable kinks. :?

Anyway as an attempt to get back on topic...to Image-Line since I'm sure you've had access to Win 11 for quite some time will it require developers to update their plugins or DAWs for that matter to maintain compatibility? I know it won't be like an Apple update but will there be some needed tweaks to existing software ?
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1027 posts since 2 Dec, 2010 from Belgium, EU.

Post Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:14 pm

Faiky wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:44 am
Hi Image Line. Can you say something about the new VST idea?
We are not going to use Minihost modular, but will have something to say on this topic later.

Never say never.
Image-Line are proud developers of - FL Studio, FL Studio Mobile & Audio Plugins.

User avatar
KVRAF
32810 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:45 am

Image-Line wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:14 pm
Faiky wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:44 am
Hi Image Line. Can you say something about the new VST idea?
We are not going to use Minihost modular, but will have something to say on this topic later.

Never say never.
That sounds good - something like Reason rack but for FL plugins would be perfect. You don't even need to develop any of your other plugins for VST/AU etc then, just keep on developing in your own format but provide a rack environment for loading them in other hosts. It could even have Edison built in as an audio recorder.

KVRAF
3362 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:11 am

Patcher
Patcher - Ability to load plugin Patcherized (Shift + dag and drop)
Patcher - link soloing?
Patcher - Automatically activate tweaked controls. [#65]
Patcher - Button on plugin window to show the associated Patcher window. [#354]
Patcher - Patcher MIDIson MIDI editor/recorder/looper. See Minihost Modular for some ideas on Piano-roll within Piano-roll.
Patcher - Patcherize selection of modules inside Patcher. [#353]
- https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic. ... 00&t=20231

:ud: so fingers crossed
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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KVRAF
10316 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:11 am

In contrast, it's fascinating to hear @Urs Heckmann say that transition to Apple Silicon allowed them to also improve performance on Intel chips (by taking advantage of newer features) and address a list of close to 500 backlog items they probably wouldn't sit down to if they didn't have to "refresh" the code. Obviously he also said all of this was at the expense of new devices and/or features.
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
396 posts since 13 Jul, 2021

Post Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:49 pm

IL gives Apple M1 support but not skins. I see IL priorities do not include what their users want at all. Though I’m never surprised by their priorities.

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KVRAF
3752 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:07 pm

hoxclab wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:49 pm
IL gives Apple M1 support but not skins. I see IL priorities do not include what their users want at all. Though I’m never surprised by their priorities.
I definitely have had updates where I wasn't that impressed, but in general it's always good to look at the bigger picture. Image Line have gained and keep customers by adding M1 support, probably I would guess without hesitation at a higher rate than people who hate the default skin. Plus, Image Line don't charge for upgrades, so it's definitely a gift horse in the mouth thing here. Don't buy anything with an expectation for what it will be in the future.

That said, skins also might generate sales, so you could still get your wish. Either that or IL are happy with the way FL looks and you're SOL. :shrug:

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