2CAudio Kaleidoscope | It's A Trip | Latest Update 1.1

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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KVRAF
4646 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:01 pm

There are many not-nice things about running macPOS. However there are some nice things about running a classic mac pro 5,1 12-core with macPOS 10.14 and that is the 2C Audio software works fine, for me YMMV

It's a pickle for software companies that are stuck on a legacy framework that is not supported in current OS's.

Maybe one day...

One thing I've learned as of late: When in doubt, blame Apple. In this case, yet another dev hits the Apple brick wall of technology.

KVRAF
1811 posts since 4 Jul, 2019

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:51 pm

2ca wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:31 pm
Hello,

1) regarding preset saving issues. Unfortunately we cannot reproduce this problem in house. I have a special test version to check. if anybody is interested please email to support@2caudio.com

2) regarding presets not being shown in a sorted way on osx. Aether, B2 and Kaleidoscope the products it affects are based on old sdk code. we simply cannot recompile them and make them work on modern systems. To fix the problem we have to re-code them all the way through to make them compatible with our new sdk code and this is a lot of work especially given that most of the dsp is a hand-written assembly level code (which is the reason why so complex algs work efficient on modern cpus). If it were that simple to fix it we would have done that long time ago

3) regarding Arm based macs. we use a lot of vectorized code, both in DSP and in GUI. This stuff is extremely complex as to run it efficiently we have to support different vector sizes. that's a lot of messy code. To make it work natively on Arm's vector engine we have to re-code and re-debug ALL that stuff. That's a lot of work too.

Note that all those issues are on mac systems only. Windows versions are working fine.

I kindly ask you all guys to be more understanding to us and when talking about bugs please mention a system/os to which they apply. thanks.

Regards,
Denis, The Initiator, Co-Founder and the Lead Developer of 2CAudio
understand completely and I am loving Kaleidoscope running perfectly on my ancient PC under win10 (so ancient it fails the win11 test)

"vectorised code" takes me back to developing in Matlab for my PhD :) man o man - setting an analysis going for 48 hours really makes you run small tests first. Nothing like coming back a day or two later and finding each result has overwritten the previous one coz of a dumb mistake :)

KVRAF
5021 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:17 am

plexuss wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:01 pm
There are many not-nice things about running macPOS. However there are some nice things about running a classic mac pro 5,1 12-core with macPOS 10.14 and that is the 2C Audio software works fine, for me YMMV

It's a pickle for software companies that are stuck on a legacy framework that is not supported in current OS's.

Maybe one day...

One thing I've learned as of late: When in doubt, blame Apple. In this case, yet another dev hits the Apple brick wall of technology.
Bullshit.
I just installed monterey and Drumspillage2 last updated in 2014 works perfectly.

2c audio aether and b2 dont use vectors. They’re just abandoned.
There’s plenty of vectorized plugs that were updated to arm.

I’ve been running 95% native sessions and its been the best daw experience i ever had
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KVRist
66 posts since 21 Jan, 2005 from Berlin, Germany

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:40 am

Yeah, I'm going to call bullshit. I appreciate that someone from 2c has the wherewithal to come out and say it, but that list is full of stuff which would involve nothing but work. Porting software to keep it compatible with new hardware and operating systems is part of the job, and it just sounds like there's no one able or willing to do that job right now.

While it is certainly more lucrative to do no work and collect money, it's not a winning strategy in the long run. I'm not going to freeze my hardware or maintain old systems just to run a couple of abandoned plugins.

User avatar
KVRAF
15698 posts since 12 Oct, 2008 from Here and there

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:00 am

Mac OS 13 was released in September 2017, ever since the alphabetic preset chaos persists. Catalina was released in October 2019, ever since the preset saving error persists.

KVRAF
1811 posts since 4 Jul, 2019

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 am

Sampleconstruct wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:00 am
Mac OS 13 was released in September 2017, ever since the alphabetic preset chaos persists. Catalina was released in October 2019, ever since the preset saving error persists.
switch to PC then - or not. Like people had to do with Logic but in the opposite direction. At least now you know it aint gonna happen for Mac users with updated systems

User avatar
KVRAF
15698 posts since 12 Oct, 2008 from Here and there

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:09 am

fairlyclose wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:07 am
Sampleconstruct wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:00 am
Mac OS 13 was released in September 2017, ever since the alphabetic preset chaos persists. Catalina was released in October 2019, ever since the preset saving error persists.
switch to PC then - or not. Like people had to do with Logic but in the opposite direction. At least now you know it aint gonna happen for Mac users with updated systems
Great advice, thank you.

User avatar
KVRAF
32950 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:37 am

2ca wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:31 pm
Hello,

1) regarding preset saving issues. Unfortunately we cannot reproduce this problem in house. I have a special test version to check. if anybody is interested please email to support@2caudio.com

2) regarding presets not being shown in a sorted way on osx. Aether, B2 and Kaleidoscope the products it affects are based on old sdk code. we simply cannot recompile them and make them work on modern systems. To fix the problem we have to re-code them all the way through to make them compatible with our new sdk code and this is a lot of work especially given that most of the dsp is a hand-written assembly level code (which is the reason why so complex algs work efficient on modern cpus). If it were that simple to fix it we would have done that long time ago

3) regarding Arm based macs. we use a lot of vectorized code, both in DSP and in GUI. This stuff is extremely complex as to run it efficiently we have to support different vector sizes. that's a lot of messy code. To make it work natively on Arm's vector engine we have to re-code and re-debug ALL that stuff. That's a lot of work too.

Note that all those issues are on mac systems only. Windows versions are working fine.

I kindly ask you all guys to be more understanding to us and when talking about bugs please mention a system/os to which they apply. thanks.

Regards,
Denis, The Initiator, Co-Founder and the Lead Developer of 2CAudio
Welcome back. I think people can understand that there are some barriers to recompiling old code but I think most of the 'less understanding' voices were concerning your absence and silence on these forums for a considerable period and lack, in particular, of response to the bugs. The fact that this is all focussed on 'recompiling' past products though is still a concern as it seems backward focused rather than emphasising future developments. I was under the impression you were developing new versions at least of B2 and Aether, which presumably work on modern Macs and it would be nice to hear something more positive and forward looking than just 'this stuff is hard'.

KVRAF
1825 posts since 6 Nov, 2006

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:22 am

B2 is a fascinating processor to me. unique in the world of reverb (and more) and i can't replicate what it does w/any other processor. it's a unique set of functions/parameters/interface.

everyone knows that making things is hard. making things in the audio software world with all the changes and updates and specs etc is challenging for everyone.. but 2C was smart enough to make these unique great sounding processors but somehow didn't see 3 years into the future like seemingly everyone else in the game (users included)????

Catalina was a shit show for devs and users alike and an OS many people skipped. it was well understood early on that it was going to be that way w/all the changes and notarization issues etc.

was 2c just out to lunch for a couple years or what? seemed like all this work should've started long ago.

it's a big job.. i'm sure.. lot's of messy code to deal with and various frameworks to sort out but it sounds like we're being prepped for something similar to the AAS tassman announcement of "sorry, we just can't do it" and those awesome 2c plug ins will get binned and abandoned.

i hope there is work happening and 2c is figuring it out and has a white board w/a timeline for things and goals to hit etc and at some point they'll be back. i wish them luck and hope they'll keep users informed either by some quarterly email update or a post in this thread or a new thread about 2c status that they create and manage and dip a toe in once every couple of months.

for now it wouldn't be a bad idea to update/highlight the compatibility faqs on their site about what OS they support and maybe make it bold and mention apple silicon and big sur etc as not supported. as currently it says "an intel cpu is required and PPC macs are not supported" and this is pretty out of date.
COMPATIBLITY
B2 is available for VST and AAX hosts under Windows 7, 8, or 10. Both 64-bit and 32-bit versions are provided for all formats.

B2 is available for AU, VST, and AAX hosts under Mac OSX.7 or higher. Both 64-bit and 32-bit versions are provided for all formats. An Intel-based CPU is required for Mac OSX. WE DO NOT SUPPORT PPC.
btw, i'll add that when/if the updates come a small update fee isn't something that would be a deal breaker for me. entirely new versions of plugins usually come w/a small fee for existing users. a nod towards understanding on both sides i think. signs of life will be a good thing too as you'd likely get positive spin on the forums etc and that usually brings in new users who are secure in purchasing plug ins they know will work and won't be abandoned.

User avatar
KVRAF
32950 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:14 pm

dayjob wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:22 am

was 2c just out to lunch for a couple years or what? seemed like all this work should've started long ago.

snip

for now it wouldn't be a bad idea to update/highlight the compatibility faqs on their site about what OS they support and maybe make it bold and mention apple silicon and big sur etc as not supported. as currently it says "an intel cpu is required and PPC macs are not supported" and this is pretty out of date.
COMPATIBLITY
B2 is available for VST and AAX hosts under Windows 7, 8, or 10. Both 64-bit and 32-bit versions are provided for all formats.

B2 is available for AU, VST, and AAX hosts under Mac OSX.7 or higher. Both 64-bit and 32-bit versions are provided for all formats. An Intel-based CPU is required for Mac OSX. WE DO NOT SUPPORT PPC.
It's all out of date, even the newest plugins Breeze 2 and Precedence need updating with security signed installers on Mac and don't seem to have had any updates since the 2.5 Breeze 2 and Precedence co-release. The other plugins you have to go through security in Mac settings for the installers to even run. I really love these plugins and want them to work so am going through this to install them on Big Sur even if they have problems, providing they don't keep crashing I will try and use them, although if they don't save presets that's going to be a pain.

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KVRAF
32950 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:44 pm

Completed installing on Big Sur - all installers apart from Breeze 2 and Precedence needed me to manually allow them through Security as they were blocked. As expected preset order is scrambled but I can live with that for now. The good news is they seem stable so far and still sound as good. Tested preset saving and recall in them all and was able to do this, so not able to replicate that bug, but I was using Studio One 5, and I think people were having those problems in Logic.

ETA just had a crash loading an old preset into B2 but tried it a second time and it loaded - also graphics are sluggish to respond in the 3 older ones

KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:04 pm

Precedence works fine here, Big Sur on a 16,1 MBP, in VE Pro. I'm not trying to automate anything in it.

the real bear installing here was TDR Proximity

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KVRAF
4646 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:58 pm

It seems that eventually 2C will either have to port their existing products to new frameworks and OSs, and/or develop new products on modern frameworks, or risk going out of business. Maybe that's the plan? Who knows. Evetually there won't be enough "legacy" new users to provide a workable revenue. Maybe the 2C people have other priorities right now and plan to update but for now are fine with the revenue they are making. Or, maybe the whole thing is just going to fizzle out. Frustrating for sure for those who these products aren't working optimally for. I guess 2C is saying, for now, don't hold your breath.

KVRAF
1825 posts since 6 Nov, 2006

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:01 pm

plexuss wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:58 pm
It seems that eventually 2C will either have to port their existing products to new frameworks and OSs, and/or develop new products on modern frameworks, or risk going out of business. Maybe that's the plan? Who knows. Evetually there won't be enough "legacy" new users to provide a workable revenue. Maybe the 2C people have other priorities right now and plan to update but for now are fine with the revenue they are making. Or, maybe the whole thing is just going to fizzle out. Frustrating for sure for those who these products aren't working optimally for. I guess 2C is saying, for now, don't hold your breath.
sounds like ohmforce type scenario in the making. (i'm pulling for you ohmforce! i want to believe!)

KVRAF
5021 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:18 am

aMUSEd wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:44 pm

ETA just had a crash loading an old preset into B2 but tried it a second time and it loaded - also graphics are sluggish to respond in the 3 older ones
I didnt install 2b and aether on bif sur because of sporadic crashing. Unreliable.
Breeze/precedence were better but cant say as reliable as valhalla or voxengo or fab.

In the end i sold it all. Been waiting on empty promises from 2c for too long.
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