2CAudio Kaleidoscope | It's A Trip | Latest Update 1.1

[jeremydb]

everyone knows that making things is hard. making things in the audio software world with all the changes and updates and specs etc is challenging for everyone.. but 2C was smart enough to make these unique great sounding processors but somehow didn't see 3 years into the future like seemingly everyone else in the game (users included)????
...
btw, i'll add that when/if the updates come a small update fee isn't something that would be a deal breaker for me. entirely new versions of plugins usually come w/a small fee for existing users. a nod towards understanding on both sides i think. signs of life will be a good thing too as you'd likely get positive spin on the forums etc and that usually brings in new users who are secure in purchasing plug ins they know will work and won't be abandoned.

Agree with all of this. I don't hold great hope anymore that 2ca is a serious operation, intent on supporting and maintaining their products (excellent for the time, and also priced for excellence). If they feel like the users need to subsidize their inaction, and propose a reasonable fee for maintenance updates, I'd at least hear them out. I don't necessarily feel like they deserve more of my money, where there has been a more-or-less deliberate breach of trust after years of empty promises. But I work in the software industry and I know how it is sometimes.

Part of the reason I'm feeling inflamed after reading and re-reading lead developer guy's email: it's insincere, and it makes "programming" sound some kind of crazy high-wire act to excuse the fact that the dev(s?) have clearly been focusing on their day jobs for the last 5 years. For instance, to fix APFS file ordering, you just need to sort the results. You don't need an exotic new SDK, which sounds impressive to end-users who don't write software, but is bullshit. I know that because I fixed that problem in my software, like 4 years ago.

Now, I'm willing to concede that 2ca's at this point aged, unmaintained code base may no longer compile using modern development tools on macOS. But again, this is just a matter of programming and sitting down to do some work. As a "lead developer", I would expect that work to be trivially manageable for the gentleman.

OK, I have to get back to work, I have a couple of bugs to fix. Might take me 5 years or so, depending on the SDK situation.

[aMUSEd]

ETA just had a crash loading an old preset into B2 but tried it a second time and it loaded - also graphics are sluggish to respond in the 3 older ones

I didnt install 2b and aether on bif sur because of sporadic crashing. Unreliable.
Breeze/precedence were better but cant say as reliable as valhalla or voxengo or fab.

In the end i sold it all. Been waiting on empty promises from 2c for too long.

To be fair that’s the only crash I’ve had so far but the graphics sluggishness is a bit annoying as it makes the controls jumpy

[aMUSEd]

Part of the reason I'm feeling inflamed after reading and re-reading lead developer guy's email: it's insincere, and it makes "programming" sound some kind of crazy high-wire act to excuse the fact that the dev(s?) have clearly been focusing on their day jobs for the last 5 years. For instance, to fix APFS file ordering, you just need to sort the results. You don't need an exotic new SDK, which sounds impressive to end-users who don't write software, but is bullshit. I know that because I fixed that problem in my software, like 4 years ago.

Yeah this one should have been fixed by now, if the problem was really down to SDK and codebase then why have the 2 newest products also not been updated in that time, or even given signed installers? This suggests a lack of action more than anything. Which again I say as a major fan of their products and owner of all - playing with them last night emphasises to me how hard these would be to replace - I don’t want to have to do that so 2c please give us better options and some more constructive dialogue.

[2ca]

hello guys,

thanks for the feedback,

>For instance, to fix APFS file ordering, you just need to sort the results. You don't need an exotic new SDK, which sounds impressive to end-users who don't write software, but is bullshit. I know that because I fixed that problem in my software, like 4 years ago.

I confirm that the problem itself is not hard to fix - we did that in our new sdk and have the solution but,
that old code will not compile and in order to fix that I would have to re-do old plug-ins using our new SDK and since our new sdk is based on different dsp and gui engines that's the same amount of work as to do plug-in from scratch and Aether, B2 and (especially) Kaleidoscope are not simple toys. I mean making old sdk to compile and then re-debugging it is the same or more amount of work as to re-write the code using new sdk. This is what I tried to communicate in my initial post.

Regards,
Denis

[2ca]

and note that if I have spent my time maintaing old sdk and making a new one I would be unable to come up with the new sdk with all its goodies a couple of years ago. It's a business so I have to compromise. The idea was to do new sdk and then eventually re-write the old products using it. I just could not have done both together.

[jeremydb]

But now making the changes required to use this mind-blowing new SDK represents such an effort, that nothing gets done.

* I have a bug
- You're going to love our new SDK. It'll blow your mind!
* Will your new SDK solve my bug?
- Not directly, but I can't possibly fix bugs until the software uses the new SDK.
* Are you updating the software to use the new SDK?
- That's hard, and work, and hard work. Did you know that software devs are like modern-day mystics?
* What about my bug?
- We're doing a cost-benefit analysis on the benefits of cost analyses. It's rad. This is a business, after all.
* My bug...?
- It's gonna blow... your... mind...

I'd say the problem lies somewhere between the idea and the execution.

[Cinebient]

B2 and Kaleidoscope are very unique and fantastic plug-ins. Also Breeze 2 and Precedence is something I really would miss now. Aether is rarely used here so I do not care much about it personally.
So its sad that I finally think I can stop to wait for things getting solved on newer Mac systems.
Funny is that the non-optimzed Kaleidoscope on my M1 MacBook runs circles around my old intel i7 stuff. So not sure if that vectorized thingie is all that important for me.
Fact, the 2CAudio stuff belongs still to my very few third party FX I use and would really miss but at the end, I would rather leave it instead of staying on old OS or changing system. As long as it works, I have to live with it where it is. Still a shame that the rare and great content I subribed form Simon Stockhausen f.e. makes no sense anymore and I doubt there will be any content creators in the future then anymore for Kaleidoscope. But I also have to learn that for some reason a lot of my most loved tools seems to be niche and are the things getting abandoned or not further developed due to other problems.
One day it might make my life more easy and all I need is Logic. I also think developers might have a hard time to create really new and commercial successful stuff because it will be too much niche and no now will buy it or it is the same of what is already there.
I am happy that I have not to deal with such a market and I wish the 2CAudio guys (I hope they are still a team) all the best and maybe one day they will blow my mind......

[dayjob]

hello guys,

thanks for the feedback,

>For instance, to fix APFS file ordering, you just need to sort the results. You don't need an exotic new SDK, which sounds impressive to end-users who don't write software, but is bullshit. I know that because I fixed that problem in my software, like 4 years ago.

I confirm that the problem itself is not hard to fix - we did that in our new sdk and have the solution but,
that old code will not compile and in order to fix that I would have to re-do old plug-ins using our new SDK and since our new sdk is based on different dsp and gui engines that's the same amount of work as to do plug-in from scratch and Aether, B2 and (especially) Kaleidoscope are not simple toys. I mean making old sdk to compile and then re-debugging it is the same or more amount of work as to re-write the code using new sdk. This is what I tried to communicate in my initial post.

Regards,
Denis

ok. so what is the plan then? how do you paint yourself out of the corner?

is there any chance that in light of the situation the license transfer policy will change so those of us whose plug ins will be non-functional or partially broken with coming macOS updates, apple silicon etc.. will be able to sell their licenses w/o such a large tax on the transaction?

[xx JPRacer xx]

Devs always have to waste their time fixing their code for Macs instead of creating new and interesting apps.

[jeremydb]

And that explains why there are no new and interesting apps, ever, on Mac, and why devs despise the platform. Thanks, that was always a real head-scratcher for me.

[jeremydb]

And let's be clear: this discussion isn't about Macs vs PCs. It's about 2ca producing expensive software ($250 for kaleidoscope), sold with assurances about the longevity of the platform. And producing it in such a way as to make it unfixable when problems arise, and unmodifyable when (inevitable, announced) changes occur in the host environment.

And although that in and of itself is incompetent, and aggravating, that's not what I am most pissed about. The company has routinely lied about and distorted the actual situation, while continuing to collect mad cash from unsuspecting customers who could be forgiven for expecting even mediocre support for a "premium" product.

Even now, where Denis has finally acknowledged that the emperor has no clothes, he's spinning it and making excuses which only make sense if one assumes that the reader is ignorant. While continuing to take people's money.

I'm glad that the PC users haven't run into any major issues yet, but that day will come, too.

[sqigls]

last time i heard from Andrew it was through a quite abusive PM to me here on KVR.
It was a bit over the top, so i figured he was having a tough time.
It was regarding me reporting on this forum that i own Kaleidoscope but it doesn't work in Cubase.
He totally wigged out at me.

I hope the best, and i realise that the mac OS is a constant pain in the arse for devs, but i sense 'SpinAudio 2.0'.
I'm sorry Denis if this is not the case, i genuinely don't want to add to your stress. I was a customer of SpinAudio though, and ended up with a whole bunch of plugins (that i adored!) which i couldn't use anymore.

[fairlyclose]

And let's be clear: this discussion isn't about Macs vs PCs. It's about 2ca producing expensive software ($250 for kaleidoscope), sold with assurances about the longevity of the platform. And producing it in such a way as to make it unfixable when problems arise, and unmodifyable when (inevitable, announced) changes occur in the host environment.

And although that in and of itself is incompetent, and aggravating, that's not what I am most pissed about. The company has routinely lied about and distorted the actual situation, while continuing to collect mad cash from unsuspecting customers who could be forgiven for expecting even mediocre support for a "premium" product.

Even now, where Denis has finally acknowledged that the emperor has no clothes, he's spinning it and making excuses which only make sense if one assumes that the reader is ignorant. While continuing to take people's money.

I'm glad that the PC users haven't run into any major issues yet, but that day will come, too.

Kaleidoscope is about 125$US, I bought it in March and have already made that back in commissions I've used it on and just sheer pleasure of use has been worth more. I think there is a shitload of whingeing going on, lots of pile on hate that is not deserved compared to other devs who just get assigned "darlings of kvr" status. Company struggles - big f**king deal

[Ploki]

Kaleidoscope is about 125$US, I bought it in March and have already made that back in commissions I've used it on and just sheer pleasure of use has been worth more. I think there is a shitload of whingeing going on, lots of pile on hate that is not deserved compared to other devs who just get assigned "darlings of kvr" status. Company struggles - big f**king deal

what hate? I don't see anyone hating.
Not anyone said that they don't like them, the just said they litterally can't use them anymore. And considering they've become useless for a lot of their users, their draconic transfer policies make matters worse.

I love them and i'll likely rebuy them if they update, but i simply lost hope that they will ever be updated.

And no, it's not Apple's fault. I.r. Audiospillage drumspillage 2, last updated in 2014 still works flawlessly on Monterey, with 100% hidpi interface. I'm not holding my breath for a native M1, but at least it keeps working.

[2ca]

sgigls, I'm sorry about SpinAudio, I tried to do my best to save the company but the situation was beyond my control. and even if I tell you what happened you would not believe me. I still feel very sorry about the customers that I was forced to abandom the support of but it was the only way for me to get out of the terror of the situation.

Regarding sorting bug on Apple. I dont know about other companies implemenation of querying file names, maybe they did not rely on internal sorting and implemented the external one from the very begining and thus avoided the situation when Apple's new file system broke the compatibility with previous sdk.