Alternative to Phoenixverb for real spaces?

[jamcat]

VSL doesn't even support VST3 in VE Pro (and it doesn't appear to be a high priority) so it seems doubtful MIR Pro is going to go VST3-only any time soon, as the def. more powerful use of is in VE Pro.

What is the difference between MIR Pro and MIR Pro 24?

[jancivil]

MIR full has no limit on the amount of icons you can get in there. MIR Pro 24 allows but 24 on the system at one time.
I'm using a lot of Synchron Player, alongside Synchron Stage in MIR Pro 24, so it's working ok for me. (I also have MIRx which plugs a version of the room (fixed positions tho, although there are several options now.) into Vienna Instrument Pro. (I have the Berlin Teldex for it, too.)
Synchron Player has surround capability and a lot of enveloping potential in the other mic'ing, which enhances the use of the MIR (without needing setting surround up as the project type). It comes with a separate plugin called MIRacle, which is about adding the late reflections of eg., Synchron (among a number of other possibilities), so I'm adding that to eg., Orchestral Tools which has its room, the Teldex. Which is narrow and deep and a nice blend with Synchron Wide particularly like this. I'm picky about mixing room sounds and I really like Synchron's character (clean is the first word comes to mind). Teldex I've always liked.

[jamcat]

MIR full has no limit on the amount of icons you can get in there. MIR Pro 24 allows but 24 on the system at one time.

Thanks. An "icon" is an individual player/instrument or something else?

VSL doesn't even support VST3 in VE Pro (and it doesn't appear to be a high priority) so it seems doubtful MIR Pro is going to go VST3-only any time soon, as the def. more powerful use of is in VE Pro.

According to the KVR Audio Product Database, MIR Pro is VST3. Though it looks like only hosts VST2 plugins.

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/vienna ... ibrary-vsl

Do you have to load the VST instruments in MIR Pro to place them, rather than using it as an insert effect on your VST instruments?

[jamcat]

...

[jamcat]

VST2 is no longer included in the VST SDK as of 2018. New developers also can’t create VST2 hosts.

So the next new DAW or audio editor that comes out will not support obsolete VST2 plugins. On any platform. Plugin consumers need to understand this. It is buyer beware for VST2 only plugins.

I spoke with devs who assured me this was not the case, they didnt even use the Steinberg SDK

Which devs? How are they implementing VST functions without the SDK? And how are they using Steinberg's VST architecture without a license legally?

I can assure you that developing plugins and hosts for the VST ecosystem requires a license from Steinberg, which is subject to all of their terms and conditions. Steinberg ceased issuing VST2 development licenses (for plugins or hosts) after October 1, 2018. Since then, developers have only been able to obtain a VST3 development license. If you are developing VST plugins or hosts without a legitimate license from Steinberg, you are infringing on Steinberg's rights, and their lawyers almost certainly will go after you.

Here is what Steinberg's Yvan Grabit, who maintains the VST platform, said in June 2018:

Concerning the VST2 License, we will include it again for last time into the next update of the VST3 SDK coming very soon.
If you are not sure that you have signed or not the license, it will be the last change to do it. This concerns plugins or host developers/companies.
You have to fill it, sign it and send it back to Steinberg, we will send you it back again signed by us (for VST2 until October 1th 2018).

https://forum.juce.com/t/steinberg-clos ... d/27722/42

[fairlyclose]

VST2 is no longer included in the VST SDK as of 2018. New developers also can’t create VST2 hosts.

So the next new DAW or audio editor that comes out will not support obsolete VST2 plugins. On any platform. Plugin consumers need to understand this. It is buyer beware for VST2 only plugins.

I spoke with devs who assured me this was not the case, they didnt even use the Steinberg SDK

Which devs? How are they implementing VST functions without the SDK? And how are they using Steinberg's VST architecture without a license legally?

I can assure you that developing plugins and hosts for the VST ecosystem requires a license from Steinberg, which is subject to all of their terms and conditions. Steinberg ceased issuing VST2 development licenses (for plugins or hosts) after October 1, 2018. Since then, developers have only been able to obtain a VST3 development license. If you are developing VST plugins or hosts without a legitimate license from Steinberg, you are infringing on Steinberg's rights, and their lawyers almost certainly will go after you.

Here is what Steinberg's Yvan Grabit, who maintains the VST platform, said in June 2018:

Concerning the VST2 License, we will include it again for last time into the next update of the VST3 SDK coming very soon.
If you are not sure that you have signed or not the license, it will be the last change to do it. This concerns plugins or host developers/companies.
You have to fill it, sign it and send it back to Steinberg, we will send you it back again signed by us (for VST2 until October 1th 2018).

https://forum.juce.com/t/steinberg-clos ... d/27722/42

I don t care about the property rights of Steinberg - not one bit.
VST2 plugins still work a treat and most likely will for a long long time. And I doubt there are many I use that will stop working or not get updated to VST3 if they aren't already.
For me this is a non-problem, way beneath "hope the cancer don't come back"

[jamcat]

VST2 plugins will continue to function so long as you stay on your current system and software. But the small developer fresh out of University that is developing the future KVR darling DAW as we speak will not be supporting VST2.

And if you are a Cubase user on Mac, VST2 plugins will no longer be supported.

Last week, Matthias Quellmann, Cubase Senior Product Manager, said:

Cubase 12 will introduce native Apple silicon support to begin with. Please be aware that VST 2 is not supported on native Apple silicon, except when run in Rosetta 2 mode. So please make sure that you let the plug-in manufacturers still hesitating to release VST 3 versions know that it’s about time!

That may not affect you directly, but make no mistake, this is an extinction-level event for VST2 and any developer who doesn't keep up. Developers can't afford to lose a sizable chunk of their market and remain viable.

One of the side effects of this is just as we saw many old developers get wiped out in the transition from DX to VST, and then again from 32-bit to 64-bit, this is likely to happen again from VST2 to VST3. Right now, you don't know which VST2-only developers are going to make the transition, and which aren't. If they haven't made the transition in the past 14 years, it's pretty unlikely they are going to now. This is why I am no longer buying any plugins that aren't VST3.

Here's the VST3 timeline:
2008: VST3 SDK released
2013: VST2 SDK discontinued
2018: VST2 subset removed from VST3 SDK, new VST2 licenses cease
2022: VST2 support ends for Apple Silicon Cubase 12

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

That’s just Cubase though because 13 years after VST3’s release, Steiny is still trying to increase adoption and now they’re (again) harming their users in their efforts to do this. VST2 works with Apple Silicon Macs in Reaper and Studio One. Just like sidechaining works with VST2 plugins and hosts except Cubase.

In 2028, we’ll probably still be talking about how Steiny is trying to strong arm developers into VST3 support while VST2 plugins continue to work fine in non-Steinberg hosts. The only compelling case Steinberg is making by dropping VST2 support on Apple Silicon and not having supported sidechaining in VST2 all these year is why users shouldn't use Steinberg hosts. "Oh 5 important plugins I own don't work in Cubase but work in Studio One and Reaper...guess I shouldn't bother upgrading Cubase and should find a new DAW."

Am I worried about some great future DAW not supporting it. Not in the least. It takes a good decade for a DAW to really get mature anyway. And if it’s a new hypothetical DAW we are talking about, then project compatibility isn’t a concern. And by then most companies will probably have offered VST3 versions of their plugins, but I expect that will be in addition to VST2 versions.

I’ve been using VST plugins for like 20 years now. Probably close to as long as they have existed. I’ve seen formats come and go. I’m still using VST2 plugins in new projects where I have the option. I’m not too worried.

[jancivil]

"Steinberg ceased issuing VST2 development licenses"
IE: no new VST2 after a point. This does not mean anything quits working that we're using.

the sky is always falling around here

[jamcat]

"Steinberg ceased issuing VST2 development licenses"
IE: no new VST2 after a point. This does not mean anything quits working that we're using.

the sky is always falling around here

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I recall that you are a Cubase user and you have expressed interest in the new Apple Silicon MacBook Pros. So for you, that does mean VST2 plugins will quit working if you follow through on a new MacBook and stick with Cubase.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

"Steinberg ceased issuing VST2 development licenses"
IE: no new VST2 after a point. This does not mean anything quits working that we're using.

the sky is always falling around here

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I recall that you are a Cubase user and you have expressed interest in the new Apple Silicon MacBook Pros. So for you, that does mean VST2 plugins will quit working if you follow through on a new MacBook and stick with Cubase.

Which goes back to what I said earlier:

The only compelling case Steinberg is making by dropping VST2 support on Apple Silicon and not having supported sidechaining in VST2 all these years is why users shouldn't use Steinberg hosts. "Oh 5 important plugins I own don't work in Cubase but work in Studio One and Reaper...guess I shouldn't bother upgrading Cubase and should find a new DAW."

[jamcat]

The best solution still is for developers to release VST3 versions to ensure future-proofing, better CPU management, and sample-accurate automation.

The whole reason I started this thread is because I'm looking for a replacement for a plugin that is not going to work on Mac OS anymore. We've all been through this multiple times going from DX to VST to 64-bit, and now native M1. So maximum longevity and compatibility are top priorities for me.

[AKJ]

If you are interested in real spaces imo nothing beats HOFA IQ Reverb 2 which is a convolution-algorithmic hybrid with very advanced features and a very good impulse library, too. The convolution engine is much better than in Altiverb or Waves IR1 (the same files will sound better), you can mix four files and there are advanced feature (like room positioning, modulation etc.). On top you get a great algorithmic engine (with actually different also to select)

[zvenx]

.........

In 2028, we’ll probably still be talking about how Steiny is trying to strong arm developers into VST3 support while VST2 plugins continue to work fine in non-Steinberg hosts. The only compelling case Steinberg is making by dropping VST2 support on Apple Silicon and not having supported sidechaining in VST2 all these year is why users shouldn't use Steinberg hosts. "Oh 5 important plugins I own don't work in Cubase but work in Studio One and Reaper...guess I shouldn't bother upgrading Cubase and should find a new DAW."
........

For me my DAW is way way more important than any plugin I use....
I can find a substitute plugin that will work for me if I abandon any plugin.

However, short of Studio One (up to a point), I couldn't for Cubase.


Indeed vst2 probably wouldn't work in the Apple Silicon Version of Cubase 12, but it for sure works on Intel Mac.
rsp

[zvenx]

I've been using Phoenixverb since it came out as my reverb for real spaces (placing string players within a virtual 3D room and such.)

Since iZotope has acquired and now killed Exponential Audio, I need a new reverb that is as subtle and sophisticated and thoroughly realistic as Phoenixverb.

I would have switched to Relab Development VSR S24, but that has been discontinued.
(I have LX480 from Relab, which I use extensively for reverb effects, but not for real spaces.)

TC Electronic VSS3 is definitely on my radar.
Are there any others to consider?

I've tried Acon Digital Verberate, but it seemed noticeably lower quality than Phoenixverb in a direct comparison. And I know within 3 posts some fanboy is going to chime in with Valhalla this or that (this is KVR, afterall.) Please don't be that guy, unless you can show it can actually do what is being asked.

Now to your actual question.

I actually only noticed today that Relab no longer lists it, BUT... I do recall reading a few years ago they were developing a plugin to replicate the TC Electronics, and calling it a different name.. Maybe that is almost ready and they removed the VSR S24 to avoid confusion (hopefully they provide a crossgrade/update path).

I am/was a EA diehard. Phoenix then Nimbus my first call Reverb for transparency......
I still haven't bought it yet, it is top on my Black Friday sale's wish list, but Cinematic Rooms by Liquid Sonics for me put even Nimbus to shame....

I would start there if I were you.

rsp