Automation of discrete values [FR]

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I am posting this here in the hope to start a conversation and hopefully get someone at Bitwig to have a think about this, in case it turns out to be useful for many people.

So, when it comes to parameter automation, to the best of my knowledge, all DAWs implement a similar paradigm, which is, as we all know, a lane over the timeline where you can draw a shape (from a simple ramp to more complex waveforms). This model generally works very well for parameters with continuous values, e.g frequency, resonance, volume. When it comes to parameters that represent discrete values, the best example of this I think is BPM synced rate (LFOs, delay etc), this model doesn't really work in my opinion.

The main problem is that you need to draw straight lines at fixed points that are very close to each other, which, depending on your screen size, can be a bit of a tedious and slow process. Not only that, but the visual feedback doesn't convey any useful meaning. If I see a ramp that goes from 0 to 100 on a frequency parameter, I know there will be a filter sweep and I can more or less guess what it will sound like. If I have to switch from 1/4 to 1/16 on an LFO rate, looking at two straight lines with a really small distance between each other doesn't really help. I normally need to add cue markers to document the values.

One workaround I found recently is the use of buttons. I just map each button to a different rate and then turn them on and off over the timeline. Like this
Screenshot 2021-11-21 at 09.55.51.png
This method obviously has quite a few drawbacks, the main ones being:
  • You need to use multiple lanes
  • You need to make sure that button on states don't overlap otherwise you'll get the sum of the values that the buttons point to.
Besides this, I find this layout helps me reason about the project much better than this does.
Screenshot 2021-11-21 at 10.01.41.png
Now imagine, instead of having multiple lanes, if you could have one single lane, where you can see the actual value rather than a straight line. I'm really terrible with mockups but imagine something like this.
Screenshot 2021-11-21 at 10.11.55.png
You would just need to select the timeline, set the boundaries and then just enter your desired value.

Obviously for this to work the plugin would need to transmit the actual values to the host and not just the percentage. In this example I used Serum which doesn't. I'm a not too sure if this is a limitation in Bitwig or that's just how VST technology works tbh. So ideally the user should be able to map the plugin value to a given ID, and then enter this value on the GUI.

What do people think of this proposal? Am I the only one who thinks this would be an amazing workflow improvement?

Thanks for reading this and look forward to hearing your opinion.
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I don’t know if the VST spec communicates the units of parameters, if not you would need to define that somehow somewhere by hand. Seems complicated. You might be able to create your own unit translation with some sort of quantizer, maybe in the Grid…

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Yeah that was one of the prerequisite for my hypothetical feature, i.e. being able to map a set of values coming from the plugin to your own values. Whether it is complicated or not I guess depends on the interface you give to the user. As I said at present I am mapping values to buttons. Worst case scenario it should as complicated as that. I am not sure I follow the suggestion about translating values in the grid. How would that translate to an alternative view for an automation lane?

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That's a good idea, I've been wishing for something similar as well. Especially for binary on/off automation it'd be great to be able to simply draw over the areas you want to enable, similar to how comping works, instead of having to fiddle with automation points.

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Tj Shredder wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:18 pm I don’t know if the VST spec communicates the units of parameters, if not you would need to define that somehow somewhere by hand. Seems complicated. You might be able to create your own unit translation with some sort of quantizer, maybe in the Grid…
Most of my plugin's parameters do show the units/labels in the device panel, but that doesn't get translated to the envelope points for some reason. Only for built-in devices.

I've already emailed support about it, but if more people ask for it, it'll more likely to be implemented.

As for this feature request, it looks like a good idea. Editing envelopes in Bitwig lacks a lot of possibilities compared to other DAWs and could use an upgrade.

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Held wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:31 pm
Tj Shredder wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:18 pm I don’t know if the VST spec communicates the units of parameters, if not you would need to define that somehow somewhere by hand. Seems complicated. You might be able to create your own unit translation with some sort of quantizer, maybe in the Grid…
Most of my plugin's parameters do show the units/labels in the device panel, but that doesn't get translated to the envelope points for some reason. Only for built-in devices.

I've already emailed support about it, but if more people ask for it, it'll more likely to be implemented.
Yeah that's actually something I just noticed. Serum is sending the right LFO rate values (e.g 1/4 etc) but then I guess the automation system in Bitwig converts it to percentage? I guess for consistency reasons?

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Held wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:31 pm
Tj Shredder wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:18 pm I don’t know if the VST spec communicates the units of parameters, if not you would need to define that somehow somewhere by hand. Seems complicated. You might be able to create your own unit translation with some sort of quantizer, maybe in the Grid…
Most of my plugin's parameters do show the units/labels in the device panel, but that doesn't get translated to the envelope points for some reason. Only for built-in devices.

I've already emailed support about it, but if more people ask for it, it'll more likely to be implemented.

As for this feature request, it looks like a good idea. Editing envelopes in Bitwig lacks a lot of possibilities compared to other DAWs and could use an upgrade.
I think it depends on the Plugin. If they use the function in the VST3 SDK then it could work. Don't know whether VST2 supports this as well.
https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... rInfo.html
But Plugins simply can decide to use [0,1] as default range for the automation and map that range to their internal range, steps and unit. I bet this is for instance true when there are macro parameters in a plugin which don't have just one range - The plugin always has to map it to the target parameters internally.
Summary: It's not only the DAW that has to support it. The VST Version and the plugin author play a role as well - All have to play well together.

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] Peter:H [ wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:47 pm I think it depends on the Plugin. If they use the function in the VST3 SDK then it could work. Don't know whether VST2 supports this as well.
At least MeldaProduction plugins support it with the VST2 version too.
] Peter:H [ wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:47 pm Summary: It's not only the DAW that has to support it. The VST Version and the plugin author play a role as well - All have to play well together.
Of course the DAW can't show anything the plugin doesn't report. But in REAPER I can automate my VST in dB/ms/Hz/[1/8] etc whereas in Bitwig I can't.

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Yeah, that's a very good FR - put it here: https://bitwish.top/

On that note, I'd love a modulator similar to Macro that would have defined number of discrete steps where would could specify a value for each step in Inspector.
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:30 pm On that note, I'd love a modulator similar to Macro that would have defined number of discrete steps where would could specify a value for each step in Inspector.
+1!!!
(+ each step should be namable)

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+1

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antic604 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:30 pm Yeah, that's a very good FR - put it here: https://bitwish.top/

On that note, I'd love a modulator similar to Macro that would have defined number of discrete steps where would could specify a value for each step in Inspector.
done!

https://bitwish.top/t/automation-of-discrete-values/289

I added it to brainstorm. Not sure it was the right section. Feel free to move it somewhere else (if you have admin rights obv)

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NomadMonad wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:17 pmI added it to brainstorm. Not sure it was the right section. Feel free to move it somewhere else (if you have admin rights obv)
:tu:

No, @icaria36 is: viewtopic.php?f=259&t=573249
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Great FR! Kind of reminds me of “cycle-fill” automation in Pro Tools.

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