Difference between Folder Track and Submix Track?

[jonatello]

I'm having a little trouble grasping the difference between a Folder track and a Submix track. Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks

[Watchful]

Absolutely can because I use both quite a bit.

A submix comes from the old days of analog mixers, if you're wondering where that term comes from, while a folder is a more computer-concept to group together related items.

They're both created about the same way: click on a bunch of related tracks, then right-click and select "pack tracks into a submix" or "pack tracks into a folder."

The important thing to remember is that a submix is an actual track composed of other tracks, which means you can do a lot of things with it. Here's some examples of how I used submixes:

1. I might put all the different drum or percussion parts into a submix. Then, I can address the output level of each track to taste, and then adjust the overall level of the submix. I can now adjust the volume of the drum/percussion parts without having to drag a bunch of tracks' level sliders up and down. This is the chief reason "submix" buttons appeared on analog mixers in the old days: it got tiresome adjusting the faders for all those microphones!

2. I'll put the verses of a lead vocal on one track. For the chorus, I'll put the right channel on its own track and the left channel on its own track. I now have three tracks of vocals, right? But I pack all three into a submix, and now I can drop my vocal processing chain onto the submix, not onto each track individually. This saves a ton of resources because I'm only putting one plugin of each kind onto one track...but all three vocal tracks route through the submix.

3. I'll put orchestral parts into a submix, because now I can apply one reverb plugin to dozens of instruments all at once. If things get a bit punchy, I can drag a compressor plugin to the orchestral submix, which now applies itself to all included tracks.

4. I'll pack backing vocals into a submix for sure. That way I can apply reverb, delay, compression, and EQ or whatever I want and it affects all tracks equally.

Submixes are great because they can be processed just like any other track. However, any plugin you put on that submix applies itself to all tracks packed into it!

Folders are just an administrative tool. You can't apply a plugin to a folder--only to the individual tracks. So if you packed a bunch of tracks into a folder and wanted to add a compressor to them, you have to add that compressor to each and every track inside it.

Here's how I use folders:

1. I will often create three MIDI tracks at the start of new project: a vocal line (just the vocal melody), a treble line (chords), and a bass line. These will be exported to sheet music software later, but can be used in the project to create new MIDI parts by dragging copies of the clips to new instrument tracks.

Once I've got the project going, I don't need to access those original MIDI tracks any more until it's time to export them to MuseScore. So I will pack them into a folder, and then close the folder to get them out of the way. They're there if I need them...just spin open the folder...but out of the way so I don't see them.

2. When I take a MIDI part and render it to an audio track, I don't want to get rid of the original MIDI track just in case I need to edit something and re-render it later. As a result, I put all my rendered MIDI tracks into a folder called "Rendered MIDI" in that project. Keeps them safe, but out of the way so I don't accidentally move a MIDI track's clips around thinking I'm grabbing the audio clip by mistake.

3. I mentioned how I use submixes on orchestral parts. I also embed sections of that orchestral part into folders. So I'll pack my woodwinds into one folder, my brass into another folder, my strings into a third folder, and so on--and then pack all those folders into a submix! As before, this is a trick to get them out of the way. But because they're all inside a submix, I can process the submix to taste.

So yes, you can put submixes in folders and folders in submixes. Just remember which is which, because you can apply a plugin to a submix but NOT to a folder.

You can go even crazier with these ideas. I sometimes have quite a bit going with a vocal part, with various parts of a song going to right or left channels, or centered mono parts for verses as I mentioned above. I can use sends and returns to process those tracks separately (short delay, long delay, reverb, saturation), but them pack those send/return tracks into a submix to clean them up with their own EQ.

This sounds heady--but once you get the basic concept (really, the difference between a submix and a folder (again, a plugin affects a submix but not a folder!) is the only thing to remember) down, you can start using both equally well for all sorts of creative uses.

Let me know if I didn't explain something well enough. I think the way Waveform uses folders, submixes, and the utterly open way you can use sends and returns in Waveform can work together to do some amazing things utterly impossible in the old analog world...and way beyond what most DAWs will allow. I really hope you get into folders and submixes...and if anyone isn't using sends and returns in Waveform, please do so.

[Watchful]

Know what might help? Pictures from actual projects.

Here are TWO submixes: one for drums (blue tracks) and one for vocals (purple tracks):

Submix.jpg

I have my various plugins put on the individual tracks within each submix and they behave as you'd expect. But note the track called Drum submix. I've got a CLA-2A compressor on there which affects every track inside the submix, and RCompressor...which affects every track inside the submix.

I can adjust the output levels on each individual drum track (and you can see they're at different levels). But if I adjust the output level of Drum submix, it affects all the tracks inside the submix up or down (because it's a plugin on the submix, which affects every track inside the submix. Pretty sure I've mentioned this a couple times. )

On the vocal track, you can see I've got the vocal parts all cut up based on their function in the song, with various sends and returns to different effects. Note the track called Vocals, which is a submix of all those tracks. In this case, I have sends and returns inside it.

But RCompressor is on the Vocals submix, which means it's compressing Verse, VOX LEFT, VOX RIGHT, and so on.

So a plugin on the submix track affects all tracks inside it. If you don't want that to happen, you need to put the plugin in question on the track of tracks inside the submix. For example, I didn't want FreshAir to apply to all my vocal tracks--so I only applied it to the track called Verse.

If I wanted to apply the same Nectar settings to all the vocals, I would have just put one copy of it on Vocals and it would address everything inside it. Here, though, I have different settings for different tracks, so you see three different Nectar plugins.

Let's take a look at folders.

Folders.jpg

Simply, I have some MIDI tracks for acoustic guitar, woodwinds, solo lead synth, and a vocal reference for the singer to follow when recording. But I've already rendered these tracks, so I don't exactly need them anymore...but if something changes later, I'll want to go back to them to make edits. To get them out of my way, I packed them into a folder called Rendered MIDI. When I click on the little down arrow, they all zip up and hide for me so I don't have to see them.

Note that I kept the plugins that produced the sound, but disabled them to save resources. I make it a habit to disable any plugin that I don't actually use actively on a project, so that keeps my RAM happy.

Note also that there is one plugin on the folder track: output level. You can raise/lower the volume of the track on playback, so if you're using these like I do, be sure to mute them! You can mute or solo the folder instead and it applies that to everything in it...but that's about it.

[jonatello]

Absolutely can because I use both quite a bit.

A submix comes from the old days of analog mixers, if you're wondering where that term comes from, while a folder is a more computer-concept to group together related items.

They're both created about the same way: click on a bunch of related tracks, then right-click and select "pack tracks into a submix" or "pack tracks into a folder."

The important thing to remember is that a submix is an actual track composed of other tracks, which means you can do a lot of things with it. Here's some examples of how I used submixes:

1. I might put all the different drum or percussion parts into a submix. Then, I can address the output level of each track to taste, and then adjust the overall level of the submix. I can now adjust the volume of the drum/percussion parts without having to drag a bunch of tracks' level sliders up and down. This is the chief reason "submix" buttons appeared on analog mixers in the old days: it got tiresome adjusting the faders for all those microphones!

2. I'll put the verses of a lead vocal on one track. For the chorus, I'll put the right channel on its own track and the left channel on its own track. I now have three tracks of vocals, right? But I pack all three into a submix, and now I can drop my vocal processing chain onto the submix, not onto each track individually. This saves a ton of resources because I'm only putting one plugin of each kind onto one track...but all three vocal tracks route through the submix.

3. I'll put orchestral parts into a submix, because now I can apply one reverb plugin to dozens of instruments all at once. If things get a bit punchy, I can drag a compressor plugin to the orchestral submix, which now applies itself to all included tracks.

4. I'll pack backing vocals into a submix for sure. That way I can apply reverb, delay, compression, and EQ or whatever I want and it affects all tracks equally.

Submixes are great because they can be processed just like any other track. However, any plugin you put on that submix applies itself to all tracks packed into it!

Folders are just an administrative tool. You can't apply a plugin to a folder--only to the individual tracks. So if you packed a bunch of tracks into a folder and wanted to add a compressor to them, you have to add that compressor to each and every track inside it.

Here's how I use folders:

1. I will often create three MIDI tracks at the start of new project: a vocal line (just the vocal melody), a treble line (chords), and a bass line. These will be exported to sheet music software later, but can be used in the project to create new MIDI parts by dragging copies of the clips to new instrument tracks.

Once I've got the project going, I don't need to access those original MIDI tracks any more until it's time to export them to MuseScore. So I will pack them into a folder, and then close the folder to get them out of the way. They're there if I need them...just spin open the folder...but out of the way so I don't see them.

2. When I take a MIDI part and render it to an audio track, I don't want to get rid of the original MIDI track just in case I need to edit something and re-render it later. As a result, I put all my rendered MIDI tracks into a folder called "Rendered MIDI" in that project. Keeps them safe, but out of the way so I don't accidentally move a MIDI track's clips around thinking I'm grabbing the audio clip by mistake.

3. I mentioned how I use submixes on orchestral parts. I also embed sections of that orchestral part into folders. So I'll pack my woodwinds into one folder, my brass into another folder, my strings into a third folder, and so on--and then pack all those folders into a submix! As before, this is a trick to get them out of the way. But because they're all inside a submix, I can process the submix to taste.

So yes, you can put submixes in folders and folders in submixes. Just remember which is which, because you can apply a plugin to a submix but NOT to a folder.

You can go even crazier with these ideas. I sometimes have quite a bit going with a vocal part, with various parts of a song going to right or left channels, or centered mono parts for verses as I mentioned above. I can use sends and returns to process those tracks separately (short delay, long delay, reverb, saturation), but them pack those send/return tracks into a submix to clean them up with their own EQ.

This sounds heady--but once you get the basic concept (really, the difference between a submix and a folder (again, a plugin affects a submix but not a folder!) is the only thing to remember) down, you can start using both equally well for all sorts of creative uses.

Let me know if I didn't explain something well enough. I think the way Waveform uses folders, submixes, and the utterly open way you can use sends and returns in Waveform can work together to do some amazing things utterly impossible in the old analog world...and way beyond what most DAWs will allow. I really hope you get into folders and submixes...and if anyone isn't using sends and returns in Waveform, please do so.

Thank you so much! These replies were awesome and super informative! Appreciate it. When I made this post, I had begun placing related instrument groups into folders together (a brass group, a woodwind group, percussion group, etc), just to keep it visually manageable, but wasn't sure if it should have been submix. But i think i made the right choice, as its just an organizational thing, not necessarily intending to apply the same effects to every instrument in a group.

[Watchful]

For sure! "Visually manageable" is great way to sum up folders.

Your related instrument groups themselves of course can be individual submixes, still rolled up in folders...or vice-versa! It all depends on how you want to manage the processing on them. Don't ever feel you have to use them consistently. I sure don't.

I want to go a bit into the history of submixes just for other folks' sanity.

In the analog world (and we still do it today), drum sets were complicated to mic up: you could have a kick mic, a snare mic, and a couple of overheads. You could mic every drum, too, and wind up with a bunch of microphones all going into a mixer.

When gain staging those mics, the mixer guy would spend a lot of time adjusting the panning and level of each mic to make sure that the snare wasn't overpowering the overheads, and that the cymbals weren't bleeding into the snare mic. It was a pain (and still is!) to get them all just right. And when you got them right, it was a great moment.

So then you're mixing, and now the drums are too loud...or too soft. How do you readjust all those levels on all those mics?

On the mixer, you route the output of each channel to a submix on the mixer. Then, you use the submix's fader to adjust up or down without having to redo all the individual mics.

Waveform uses that same concept, but instead of only four submixes on an expensive analog mixer, you have an unlimited number of submixes at your disposal.

I imagine myself telling the 1980s me "Yeah, in 2021, you can create submixes for every instrument group in a section, then a submix for every section, and then a submix for a full orchestra, and still throw your drums into a submix, your lead vocals, your background vocals, and a wall of guitars...each into their own submix."

But 1980s me would still be reeling over the ability to have hundreds of tracks each with multiple sends and returns to notice.

[LismoreMusic]

Absolutely can because I use both quite a bit.

A submix comes from the old days of analog mixers, if you're wondering where that term comes from, while a folder is a more computer-concept to group together related items.

They're both created about the same way: click on a bunch of related tracks, then right-click and select "pack tracks into a submix" or "pack tracks into a folder."

The important thing to remember is that a submix is an actual track composed of other tracks, which means you can do a lot of things with it. Here's some examples of how I used submixes:

1. I might put all the different drum or percussion parts into a submix. Then, I can address the output level of each track to taste, and then adjust the overall level of the submix. I can now adjust the volume of the drum/percussion parts without having to drag a bunch of tracks' level sliders up and down. This is the chief reason "submix" buttons appeared on analog mixers in the old days: it got tiresome adjusting the faders for all those microphones!

2. I'll put the verses of a lead vocal on one track. For the chorus, I'll put the right channel on its own track and the left channel on its own track. I now have three tracks of vocals, right? But I pack all three into a submix, and now I can drop my vocal processing chain onto the submix, not onto each track individually. This saves a ton of resources because I'm only putting one plugin of each kind onto one track...but all three vocal tracks route through the submix.

3. I'll put orchestral parts into a submix, because now I can apply one reverb plugin to dozens of instruments all at once. If things get a bit punchy, I can drag a compressor plugin to the orchestral submix, which now applies itself to all included tracks.

4. I'll pack backing vocals into a submix for sure. That way I can apply reverb, delay, compression, and EQ or whatever I want and it affects all tracks equally.

Submixes are great because they can be processed just like any other track. However, any plugin you put on that submix applies itself to all tracks packed into it!

Folders are just an administrative tool. You can't apply a plugin to a folder--only to the individual tracks. So if you packed a bunch of tracks into a folder and wanted to add a compressor to them, you have to add that compressor to each and every track inside it.

Here's how I use folders:

1. I will often create three MIDI tracks at the start of new project: a vocal line (just the vocal melody), a treble line (chords), and a bass line. These will be exported to sheet music software later, but can be used in the project to create new MIDI parts by dragging copies of the clips to new instrument tracks.

Once I've got the project going, I don't need to access those original MIDI tracks any more until it's time to export them to MuseScore. So I will pack them into a folder, and then close the folder to get them out of the way. They're there if I need them...just spin open the folder...but out of the way so I don't see them.

2. When I take a MIDI part and render it to an audio track, I don't want to get rid of the original MIDI track just in case I need to edit something and re-render it later. As a result, I put all my rendered MIDI tracks into a folder called "Rendered MIDI" in that project. Keeps them safe, but out of the way so I don't accidentally move a MIDI track's clips around thinking I'm grabbing the audio clip by mistake.

3. I mentioned how I use submixes on orchestral parts. I also embed sections of that orchestral part into folders. So I'll pack my woodwinds into one folder, my brass into another folder, my strings into a third folder, and so on--and then pack all those folders into a submix! As before, this is a trick to get them out of the way. But because they're all inside a submix, I can process the submix to taste.

So yes, you can put submixes in folders and folders in submixes. Just remember which is which, because you can apply a plugin to a submix but NOT to a folder.

You can go even crazier with these ideas. I sometimes have quite a bit going with a vocal part, with various parts of a song going to right or left channels, or centered mono parts for verses as I mentioned above. I can use sends and returns to process those tracks separately (short delay, long delay, reverb, saturation), but them pack those send/return tracks into a submix to clean them up with their own EQ.

This sounds heady--but once you get the basic concept (really, the difference between a submix and a folder (again, a plugin affects a submix but not a folder!) is the only thing to remember) down, you can start using both equally well for all sorts of creative uses.

Let me know if I didn't explain something well enough. I think the way Waveform uses folders, submixes, and the utterly open way you can use sends and returns in Waveform can work together to do some amazing things utterly impossible in the old analog world...and way beyond what most DAWs will allow. I really hope you get into folders and submixes...and if anyone isn't using sends and returns in Waveform, please do so.

Brilliant answer!

[Watchful]

Thanks!

[jonatello]

I imagine myself telling the 1980s me "Yeah, in 2021, you can create submixes for every instrument group in a section, then a submix for every section, and then a submix for a full orchestra, and still throw your drums into a submix, your lead vocals, your background vocals, and a wall of guitars...each into their own submix."

But 1980s me would still be reeling over the ability to have hundreds of tracks each with multiple sends and returns to notice.

oh my goodness right?? I remember being a kid in the 80s and 90s, using a tape recorder to try and make little recordings by dubbing etc. Today's technology with merely the free software would have felt like i hit the absolute jackpot!

So now I'm a little confused again, because i just realized I CAN apply effects to folder tracks. So I'm back to being fuzzy on the functional difference.

[pough]

So now I'm a little confused again, because i just realized I CAN apply effects to folder tracks. So I'm back to being fuzzy on the functional difference.

What do you mean by "apply effects to Folder tracks"? Do you mean the individual tracks within the Folder or the Folder track itself? Individual tracks can have effects - it doesn't matter if they're in Folders or Submixes.

Adding FX plugins to the Folder track (not the tracks within the Folder) will automatically convert it to a Submix. The Folder master track gets a single volume/pan plugin and that's it.

All tracks within a Submix MUST route through the Submix master track. Tracks within a Folder can be routed to wherever.

[Watchful]

Thanks, Pough. Great explanation!

[JordiTR]

Hi you all, great topic. Now even we have "groups", I'm not sure how diffent groups are from submixes or folders... "Groups" allow all grouped tracks to share some parameters like volume.

[JordiTR]

Something I'm trying to find is how to (midi-)play several tracks at the same time. I would like to address my physical keyboard to several tracks at once and that way "layer" several soft synths for more complexe sound textures. I'm not experienced with Waveform and it looks to me that I can't play several tracks at once, only the active one: is it possible but grouping tracks ??

[Watchful]

Hi you all, great topic. Now even we have "groups", I'm not sure how diffent groups are from submixes or folders... "Groups" allow all grouped tracks to share some parameters like volume.

I don't use groups myself, but they apply to clips, typically multiple clips across tracks. Here's a tutorial on them.

Something I'm trying to find is how to (midi-)play several tracks at the same time. I would like to address my physical keyboard to several tracks at once and that way "layer" several soft synths for more complexe sound textures. I'm not experienced with Waveform and it looks to me that I can't play several tracks at once, only the active one: is it possible but grouping tracks ??

Not sure what you're asking to do... are you looking to send a single MIDI track or a physical keyboard to control different plugins at once? If so, you're looking for "racks." You load multiple plugins into the rack, and link your MIDI input (virtual or physical) to play them all at the same time.

That's a big topic thanks to what they can do--and probably should be put into its own thread.

[Peter Widdicombe]

... or you can create virtual midi inputs. You can create multiple virtuals based on a single MIDI input, and then you can assign them to separate tracks. Depending on your use/workflow this may be easier; particularly while experimenting with sounds. Once you have a few combos you like, you can create racks with those, or just leave the multiple virtuals as a tool of choice.

What CAN be interesting is that these virtuals can have some simple customizations on them. I recently got a keyboard with pads, and default is that PAD events are sent on midi channel 10, and key events on channel 1. I created virtuals MPKkeys and MPKpads that filter OUT channels 10 and 1 respectively, so when I use MPKkeys I get only the key events, and MPKpads get only the pad input. When selecting input device, just select what kind of content you want.

[JordiTR]

Thanks @Watchful for your answer. I saw that video about groups and that's something you have if you pay for the "Pro" version, what makes me think that Tracktion thinks it's so useful/important that it's worth paying for it... Anyway, I just was curios to see how the "groups" interact with "folders" and "submixes" from more experienced users. In fact "group" it's not only about "multiple clips across tracks", but "all the clips accross the selected tracks", is it ?