Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[BertKoor]

You are aware of the fact that your font has copyright? Don't know whether that's a good or bad thing, just another consideration.

What copyright? The music notation is free for everyone to use.

Well, "copyright" as in "this work may not be copied, published, distributed or microfilmed without prior written consent of the holder" or whatever the full legal text is. Fonts and glyphs are intellectual property, works of art sometimes, and are by default protected by copyright. So are all your texts that describe how it all works.

You have the option to go copy-left, GNU, DBAD, whatever. But that must be explicitly stated in a license text.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect ... _typefaces

[Pashkuli]

Well, "copyright" as in "this work may not be copied, published, distributed or microfilmed without prior written consent of the holder" or whatever the full legal text is. Fonts and glyphs are intellectual property.

Nothing to do with my approach at designing a music notation.
On the other hand, I will have to come up with something, because some moron might claim it.
Anyway, it is in a process of completion (WIP).
Maybe it is a good thing that it is only me who uses it... and people do not care. Actually for the time being I prefer it this way.

[Pashkuli]

@jancivil
@fmr
@shawshawraw
and others

Btw... have you ever asked yourselves why in piano roll interfaces:


there is always C as a renova separator (ok, octave divider)? Why is it not the division line at A? A is the first letter in most European, Western and Mediterranean languages (and some of West Asian).
Have always been trying to find an option to change this in a software setting... to any note of the 12.

Maybe just another quirk of inherited "because that is how we've been taught to do it".
I am aware that the so called "middle C" is the note on the ledger line between the grand staves, but that is really not a sufficient "explanation". Can it be that though? I hope not...

Anyway, why is A not C (if we should start from there)?
I have heard the maybe "urban legend" that the key designated with A was actually the furthest to the left on back then pianos (actually clavichords or older keyboards). It definitely is on the modern pianos. So, just because we read from left to right, someone in the old days started it from there out of "convenience", or rather "laziness"?

Also, which MIDI-sequencer (DAW) is that on the screenshot?

[shawshawraw]

This looks like Cubase.

[BertKoor]

The division line is at C because MIDI note number zero and 60 are C, and the C is where the depicted octave (ok, for you renova) numbers increase.

So the real question is why do we start the common major scale with C and not A. I have no answer apart from just because it's convention. You may not like that or find it particular or illogical, but it's convention nevertheless.

Another mind boggling convention is that Bb instruments like trumpets play a Bb when the notation says C. Plenty other instruments are notated transposed without a special clef for indication.

[fmr]

@jancivil
@fmr
@shawshawraw
and others

Btw... have you ever asked yourselves why in piano roll interfaces:


there is always C as a renova separator (ok, octave divider)? Why is it not the division line at A? A is the first letter in most European, Western and Mediterranean languages (and some of West Asian).
Have always been trying to find an option to change this in a software setting... to any note of the 12.

Maybe just another quirk of inherited "because that is how we've been taught to do it".
I am aware that the so called "middle C" is the note on the ledger line between the grand staves, but that is really not a sufficient "explanation". Can it be that though? I hope not...

I could provide you with some possible explanations. BertKoor already gave you one: The "middle C" is the note that sort of "splits" the MIDI note range, and also the note that starts it.

They did that probably because the ("middle C" it's called "middle " for a reason) also sort of "splits" the piano keyboard in two halves (and the piano became the ubiquitous musical instrument since the second half of the XVIIIth century). Also, the "grand staff" splits at the "middle C".

I could as well went into the explanations of WHY the C Major and a minor are the tonalities without accidents, and why the keyboard is designed the way it is, but I don't think that matters to the notation subject.

But why does that matter to the subject under discussion? Are you also opposing to that?

[imrae]

Another mind boggling convention is that Bb instruments like trumpets play a Bb when the notation says C. Plenty other instruments are notated transposed without a special clef for indication.

There is a logic there: trumpets and horns are available in various different lengths/keys. (This was especially necessary before valves were added!) Transposing the score means that the harmonic positions and fingering do not have to be re-learned for every type of horn.

Why the Bb trumpet is the standard in a modern orchestra rather than C I have no idea; both are available. Composers do occasionally specify different ones for tonal purposes. Often what they actually get is a decent Bb player doing mental transposition...

[gaggle of hermits]

Why the Bb trumpet is the standard in a modern orchestra rather than C I have no idea

they sound surprisingly different. if you want to wake the people up on the seats at the back, pick the c. most want the mellower sound of the Bb.

[gaggle of hermits]

Anyway, why is A not C (if we should start from there)?
I have heard the maybe "urban legend" that the key designated with A was actually the furthest to the left on back then pianos (actually clavichords or older keyboards). It definitely is on the modern pianos. So, just because we read from left to right, someone in the old days started it from there out of "convenience", or rather "laziness"?

hold up, weren't you trying to browbeat someone yesterday about having to learn about the origin of ut, re, mi...?

and yet you think the choice of C as a 'home' scale is down to the design of an instrument that didn't appear until way after the guidonian natural hexachord appeared?

[Pashkuli]

Bb instruments like trumpets play a Bb when the notation says C. Plenty other instruments are notated transposed without a special clef for indication.

Why the Bb trumpet is the standard in a modern orchestra rather than C I have no idea; both are available. Composers do occasionally specify different ones for tonal purposes. Often what they actually get is a decent Bb player doing mental transposition...

I am not a brass player. Had no idea. But this is so sad...
After all a player should know best their instruments and the notes those instruments produce.
Yes, because of size, notes will be different for the same topology and fingerings (regardless of size), but after all a player should know how their instrument sounds.

I can only speak for guitars, as with guitars we have quite good amount of tunings to choose from and set up. And the whole scale fingering changes with each different tunings.

[Pashkuli]

Also, the "grand staff" splits at the "middle C".

Yes, I mentioned that as a possible prospect, but considering there are other clefs it would be a bit of coincidence, special case.

Also on a 88 grand piano keybaord the "middle" is between E and F (44 + 44) from the middle renova ("octave"), but maybe things would shift a bit on an organ keyboard. But also this would be more of a coincidence.

Another suspect here is the church psalm "Sancte Iohannes" ("Ut queant laxis"), allegedly composed by Guido d'Arezzo: the father of the music score notation. He also marked the notes C and F.
Anther special case.

I could as well went into the explanations of WHY the C Major and a minor are the tonalities without accidents, and why the keyboard is designed the way it is, but I don't think that matters to the notation subject.

But why does that matter to the subject under discussion? Are you also opposing to that?

Oh, please do so. It is related to the PMN notation! I would like to read your opinion on the piano\organ keyboard design.

[Pashkuli]

you think the choice of C as a 'home' scale is down to the design of an instrument that didn't appear until way after the guidonian natural hexachord appeared?

Keyboard instruments are more than 2000 years old. Sure, in the ancient past they were more lever-like in type, not like the modern button\keys. But they are old. Also that is how organ was born.

[Pashkuli]

The division line is at C because MIDI note number zero and 60 are C, and the C is where the depicted octave (ok, for you renova) numbers increase.

Good, and true. But they could have chosen A as a "MIDI note 0".

This is also related to why I have chosen B (first consonant letter in most European languages) to start where the old C is. I started form a physical and also mathematical point of view.

Let's start with silence: 0Hz
First integer tone would be: 1Hz
Its renova (octave): 1 × 2 = 2Hz
Next renova: 4Hz
Next: 8Hz, 16Hz, 32Hz (this is whereabout human hearing kicks in)

32Hz (of a tuning as it is now today as A = 440Hz, or 432 or 445) will fall between what is known as B and C.

So, B it (pun intended): B is the first letter to assign to the first note.
It has nothing to do with any "middle" position on a specific instrument (cause technically it is not).

Also I prefer the reference of symmetry D (F in PMN) and A♭ (R in PMN) give us. But it is a special case for the special case of the standard piano layout (it is not standard, rather badly implemented design).

[gaggle of hermits]

you think the choice of C as a 'home' scale is down to the design of an instrument that didn't appear until way after the guidonian natural hexachord appeared?

Keyboard instruments are more than 2000 years old. Sure, in the ancient past they were more lever-like in type, not like the modern button\keys. But they are old. Also that is how organ was born.

what makes you think instruments, such as the hydraulis, built at a time when the main system in use was based on a set of tetrachords and separating tones bounded by A at each end would favour C major as the primary scale?

[Pashkuli]

I still think we should be able to chose which note to represent a renova separation in MIDI-rolls.
This C is nothing special, honestly.
Even considering the physical explanation I gave. I relate that only to where to start naming notes. Not how to "divide" them.