Reason 3.0 announced

[xg2]

This type of stuff makes me feel like I'm using a toy (didn't want to say that either), but it is looking like a toy, more and more.

It's not a toy, it's "a whole rack of synths".
Or maybe not...
Yes, the Props have shot themselves in the foot. The whole idea of Reason is completely out of date.
Wait for the mags. to fall all over it, and recommend it (albeit with reservations, but not BIG ENOUGH ones.)

[Meffy]

xg, did you ever pause to think about this?

Every time you post you're putting Reason's name in front of hundreds of people. A few might read your posts and agree with you. The majority probably don't give a pony's patoot what you think, and are just enjoying watching you squirm.

But a substantial number will read and become interested in Reason. They'll be intrigued, perhaps enough to try it out. And of those, a good number will buy it.

So, I guess I ought to thank you for helping to market Reason. :-) You're doing a wonderful job of it.

And your whipped puppy act really is comical.

Meffy

[shamann]

Really? All the time? A VST NEVER takes out your host? I find that hard to believe. I love VST/AU/DX/RTAS/MAS/OU812/XYZ/RTFM, but the very nature of third party software that runs inside a host makes for the possibility that something doesn't work the way it's supposed to at some point.

This is the strong point to Reason, and I don't think it's unreasonable to mention it.

Now the fact that crashes and incompatibility are almost non existent compared to a few years ago, you have a point with that, but no host could possibly be as stable as Reason 100% of the time IMO.

You're talking two separate things. Reason's stability can't be compared to conflicts between hosts and third party plugins. If Reason was a host, which it isn't at all, then we'd have a comparison. But to say that my standalone app is more stable than your suite of software from twenty developers just doesn't jive.

Compare Reason to like applications, and this stability issues diminishes. I've used both Audiomulch and Vaz Modular for years, on an old Win98 PII computer no less, and neither of them have ever crashed using 100% native components. VSTs have made them crash, sure, but again Reason isn't a host, so that proves nothing. Bidule, another standalone, unfortunately, has crashed often for me, enough that I've pretty much stopped using it. Strangely enough, the crashing began once they implemented Rewire.

Cheers,
Steve

[popsych]

(oh arps, another thing I they didnt include in R3 is midi effects ).

.................

I would still like to see either a closely guarded (shared to only a select few) reason file format sdk which easily ports from VST code OR even better (imo) a very small (footprint and memory-wise) vst/vsti loader that works in tandem with reason but is made to work specifically for reason.

If they included this, there would just be a 'vst tandem loader' device in reason which would link the actual tandem vst program. That way if there was a buggy vst/vsti, it would crash the tandem program and not reason itself. I'm pretty sure they can setup some kind of logic that does this "if(exception of some sort occurs){ exit tandem_device;}" cheapo pseudopseudo code.. but I think it gets my idea across

Why does everyone go around saying things about Reason hosting VST's. I think the best solution is if each instrument and effect of reason was made available as an individual separate VST in the vein project 5 shares stuff with sonar. That would certainly make integration with other hosts easier than rewire and only take as many system resources as the user actually needs.

I mean i don't know bout you but i certainly don't enjoy the Reason sequencer. I do however LOVE some refills available and sadly even though most are sample based i can't use them in any other software due to the proprieatary nature so i'm FORCED to use Reason. Propellerheads should take note that with all the new ROMplers flying around the market soon their niche of offering as complete soundbank in one file as a refill will not be mof much importance in the months to come.

[DHR53]

O.K. I paid 289. for Reason back awhile ago... Now if I only used it for a drum machine, these days that's still a pretty fair deal? Considering I can do a LOT more with it... and I already own a bunch of other hosts, what's the issue here? Logic crashes, Live crashes, Reason doesn't... If it was my only host that would be sweet! But even as a sound module it's just one more thing I don't have to worrry about, which I really appreciate considering the limited amount of time I have to spend on music... Everything in my link was created in Reason... no mastering at all... and I use headphones, period! so I have no idea what it sounds like through speakers... but it amuses me, and if I'm not paying attention, it actuall sounds like a real record...

[Markleford]

It's not a toy, it's "a whole rack of synths". Or maybe not...

Actually, there's something to the "musical toy" concept: it *is* dead simple to use. You can't shoot yourself in the foot with it, and you can get enjoyable results right out of the box.

Reason *has* been used as a tool for teaching beginners. But why begrudge them that? Why take away their fun?

You might as well start pushing the neighborhood kids off their tricycles and training wheels because "they're not *real* bikes".

Yes, the Props have shot themselves in the foot. The whole idea of Reason is completely out of date.

Actually, the "idea" was to make an entirely self-contained, no-configuration, easy to use software workstation that supports monolithic project files that are sharable between Mac and PC users across the Internet.

I'm not so sure if that idea is quite "out of date".

On the other hand, I myself *have* described this as "ideological crippleware". Yes, I recognize that Propellerhead's marketing objective severely limits what Reason could possibly achieve. However, I (as a mature, thinking human being) recognize that I have to either accept this notion (begrudgingly), or move on to something else.

And it's my responsiblity to decide if each successive upgrade is worth my hard-earned cash.

Similarly, if someone grows beyond needing just Reason, then they have Rewire and can use it with another host (like FREE Tracktion!). And if they eventually decide that Reason is not for them at all, the license is transferrable.

Wait for the mags. to fall all over it, and recommend it (albeit with reservations, but not BIG ENOUGH ones.)

Yes, industry mags tend to suck up to developers. We KNOW this. No need to beat the horse any more.

However, you still maintain the paranoid notion that consumers are *exclusively* reliant upon the hype machine to make their purchasing decisions, when this is entirely untrue.

Anybody with Internet access (which is a substantial proportion of the electronic music userbase) can freely download the demo for Reason. They have the ability to determine what is good and what is bad for themselves.

- m

[Meffy]

Why take away their fun?

You might as well start pushing the neighborhood kids off their tricycles and training wheels because "they're not *real* bikes".

Oh, riiiight. First you persecute the poor little thing by not letting him post endless diatribes against Reason (except he keeps doing exactly that) and banning him from all the forums he so dearly loves...

... and NOW you want to take away his OTHER hobby?

You are just plain mean, Markleford. *tsk*

Besides, those children really need to wise up and learn to ride ten-speeds. xg's doing them all a big favor, and deserves our thanks and respect.

Meffy

[DHR53]

I just realized I said "record" ...that makes me really old, doesn't it?

[drez]

Well, I think it HAS attracted power users since 2.0 as I don't recall these guys using it at version 1:

The Crystal Method
The Prodigy
Beastie Boys

Do you know them personally to check? You can also add Will Smith to the list, but that doesn't prove anything. Just because someone has made music through other means doesn't make them an advanced computer user. In the Will Smith interview I read, he was talking about making music with computers like it was something new and cutting edge.

If only you could see the irony in that statement!
In other words, like a typical Reason user, he probably was amazed because it looks like "a whole rack of synths".
Perhaps he wondered how they managed to fit all those synths inside that tiny little computer chip...

xg, TCM aren't idiots. They have more gear in the bomb shelter than they know what to do with. They used to be all hardware. They aren't guys with cubase SL and an M-Audio audiophile pumping out albums.

They've been using Macs for years sequencing outboard gear and now softsynths with DP and PT.

You're statement couldn't be farther from the truth. The fact is that they used it because they liked it, and that's just the way it is.

[drez]

I would still like to see either a closely guarded (shared to only a select few) reason file format sdk which easily ports from VST code OR even better (imo) a very small (footprint and memory-wise) vst/vsti loader that works in tandem with reason but is made to work specifically for reason.

If they included this, there would just be a 'vst tandem loader' device in reason which would link the actual tandem vst program. That way if there was a buggy vst/vsti, it would crash the tandem program and not reason itself. I'm pretty sure they can setup some kind of logic that does this "if(exception of some sort occurs){ exit tandem_device;}" cheapo pseudopseudo code.. but I think it gets my idea across

actually I'm surprised they havent teamed up with the powercore or UAD-1 people and either made their ('core or Uad) plugins work in reason.. or made a special powered card for reason itself.. but maybe thats just another dumb idea.

I really think that the modules are completely proprietary. They aren't written to the VST spec...which is probably why they don't crash and they are so CPU friendly.

I just don't think it is possible for them to do it.

I think it comes down to the framework that they develop in. It has zero to do with VST development. From what I understand, at the beginning it was all built inhouse, meaning the framework for development. It just doesn't make sense for them to put forth the massive effort to "convert" them to VST's.

They are making a good living selling the product as is (else they wouldn't have made it for 10 years). Would it be nice to have them as VST's?

Absolutely, but it will never happen. It appears they hold their cards exremely close to their chest to keep the product "pure" and free from all of those evil plugin developers.

GRAB YOUR TORCH AND PITCHFORK!!!

[lucille]

I imagine reason's devices could be easily "wrapped"
and used as vst's, except Reason's automation is non sysex--so that would require some work. Like a dxi wrapper. VST proscribes nothing internal to the device.

Its like that idiot on the props board who "proves" its technically impossible to vsts in reason.

The best part of Reason is the internal automation--
it kind defeats the purpose.

However...

The whole cv routing thing is vastly overrated. I've
called for someone to post a composite intrument several times, and they all sounded lame. Because
Subtractor and Malstrom are both very average synths
by vst standards. I think the "combinator" will bear
this out--as there will likely be a combinator board. The mp3 examples are underwhelming.

[drez]

The mp3 examples are underwhelming.

I disagree. I think they sound stellar.

[Meffy]

they all sounded lame

Not "I thought they all sounded lame."

Speaks volumes, that does. :-D

Meffy

[drez]

The whole cv routing thing is vastly overrated. I've
called for someone to post a composite intrument several times, and they all sounded lame. Because
Subtractor and Malstrom are both very average synths
by vst standards.

Well, most "complex" VSTi's on the market basically take single pieces and combine them. If they have 6 oscillators, then that is 6 'single' osc's. If it has multiple filters, it is X by 1 filter.

I couldn't create a truely composite instrument because I couldn't truely layer 'synths', I could only do effects with the spiders. I had no way to trigger 6 subtractors and 4 Malstroms at once.

I have seen you post that you could layer a thousand subtractors and they would all sound lame because it is a lame synth. My point is that all synths sound fairly lame if you only play one piece of them. By truely being able to combine things through the splits/merge function of the spiders, through multiple Malstrom Filters with Spiders and effects AND NOW finally be able to actually PLAY them all at once, this is an entirely different ball game.

Plus being able to trigger multiple redrum's and matrix's with the combinator, complex parameter automation can be done...all saved in the same combinator patch.

I think the combinator is a HUGE addition to the Reason paradigm.

[Bassballjg]

I just realized I said "record" ...that makes me really old, doesn't it?

For What it's worth, DHR, I say record too, all the time. We geezers need to stick together.

What you do with Reason is amazing. I need to hear your work teaming Reason with Live. I can see how you're losing interest in Logic and migrating to the Reason/Live team. I'm a Reason/Sonar guy myself and it works for me, warts, the dreaded ReWire and all. Combinator is going to totally revolutionize my programming and my composition. It's doing a lot of what I wished I could do with the .rns files I put in the Hollow Sun ReFill(insert shamelss plug here ).

Seriously, if you want to know what Reason can do, click on Dan's link. It's some of the best music I've heard in a while.