Experiential discovery vs. formal training in music theory

[jancivil]

out of nothing comes... complete this thought

...the Big Bang.

Well, you may believe that, most astrophysicists and such - all that I've read - do not.
When I was like 5, I asked my mother "Who created God, Mama?" "I don't know, honey."
This is going to HPC now

He started it

[vurt]

I lately looked at a "play piano" tutorial at youtube. I was pretty impressed somehow by this young lady. Her snobby London accent. The way she explained all those complex things. She was a professional teacher for more than ten years and has produced many many videos over the time.

As I said - I was impressed. Until that theory monster started composing and playing an own little pop song

But yeah - I guess it´d be better to know all that like she does. But unfortunately most of us are not that patient since they don´t have that much time - ahm - over.

well, being the best ever at theory, doesn't guarantee taste

just because her song isn't great, doesn't mean the tools used to create it aren't great.

[jancivil]

'the physics of music will lead to learning some elementary basics."
I don't know what that means. Elementary arithmetic does as well.

[jancivil]

I was impressed. Until that theory monster started composing and playing an own little pop song

But yeah - I guess it´d be better to know all that like she does. But unfortunately most of us are not that patient since they don´t have that much time - ahm - over.

well, being the best ever at theory, doesn't guarantee taste

just because her song isn't great, doesn't mean the tools used to create it aren't great.

I read that as a dichtomy between knowing a lot of 'music theory' and 'creating a pop song'.
I didn't read into 'an own little pop song' as 'some music that wasn't good'.

[vurt]

I was impressed. Until that theory monster started composing and playing an own little pop song

But yeah - I guess it´d be better to know all that like she does. But unfortunately most of us are not that patient since they don´t have that much time - ahm - over.

well, being the best ever at theory, doesn't guarantee taste

just because her song isn't great, doesn't mean the tools used to create it aren't great.

I read that as a dichtomy between knowing a lot of 'music theory' and 'creating a pop song'.
I didn't read into 'an own little pop song' as 'some music that wasn't good'.

ah, you could be right. i just assumed the song wasn't good so whats the point learning?

either way, the theory isn't the issue
as stated, it's their own lack of patience and time.

[shawshawraw]

I lately looked at a "play piano" tutorial at youtube. I was pretty impressed somehow by this young lady. Her snobby London accent. The way she explained all those complex things. She was a professional teacher for more than ten years and has produced many many videos over the time.

As I said - I was impressed. Until that theory monster started composing and playing an own little pop song

But yeah - I guess it´d be better to know all that like she does. But unfortunately most of us are not that patient since they don´t have that much time - ahm - over.

Years ago a friend (a guitar head) got me a ticket to a Joe Satriani's show. I wasn't into guitar at all then and I just roughly knew that name but never made any imagery connections (well, he bought me the ticket, after all). On the show evening I was stuck in traffic and spent forever finding a parking, and when I arrived it was 30 min past the clock and all I saw was a bald lone-star wearing sunglasses playing under the spot in front of a pack of patrons in the venue... and I thought, this guy played OK but not my fav. So I found my friend and listened on... Another 30 min passed and this guy was still playing. I tapped my friend "what the heck this opener is playing forever??" and my friend's look was immediately struck and I saw terror in his eyes. Then I learned there weren't an opener at all and Satch himself just kicked off the show.

After I got my hands on guitars, now I understand how hard it was to play those stuff on a guitar as cleanly and gracefully as the legend!!

I guess another lesson I learned was performers are 10x the musicians they seem to be.

[vurt]

the majority of my knowledge is self discovery rather than formal, although i did do a couple of units at uni, as i had to pass exams.

theres nothing wrong with self discovery, as long as you don't try to pass it on. obviously in some cases, passing on the knowledge, fine, but in threads asking specific theory business, i leave it to those who have done the work!
where you can share, eg you share a piece of music, someone asks for a walkthrough of a part, great, there you have shown that you know what you are doing!

if i try to start talking theory beyond the basics, i get lost, it muds the water for anyone looking for information.

[jancivil]

But if one said to a formally trained violin player something like "play notes in that passage as steps with zero release" instead of "play notes in that passage as staccato 1/16ths", that'd be confusing.
And the other way around: to someone who has never read traditional theory but understands "steps and envelopes" paradigm, "staccato" might be the more confusing term.

how does staccato 16ths equate to zero release, per se? That makes no sense. If you want 16th notes all staccato you need to use the lingo. In no way have you described it saying 'notes as steps with zero release', which reads as nonsense to me. It also appears to assert that "trained violinist" equates to 'person that has no knowledge of sound otherwise', if you mean release characteristic in an 'electronic' instrument. I don't know what you mean by it, and that's not my faulr.

This is dichotomous to you, in itself it seems like a failing justification of some propaganda to me.

[vurt]

I lately looked at a "play piano" tutorial at youtube. I was pretty impressed somehow by this young lady. Her snobby London accent. The way she explained all those complex things. She was a professional teacher for more than ten years and has produced many many videos over the time.

As I said - I was impressed. Until that theory monster started composing and playing an own little pop song

But yeah - I guess it´d be better to know all that like she does. But unfortunately most of us are not that patient since they don´t have that much time - ahm - over.

Years ago a friend (a guitar head) got me a ticket to a Joe Satriani's show. I wasn't into guitar at all then and I just roughly knew that name but never made any imagery connections (well, he bought me the ticket, after all). On the show evening I was stuck in traffic and spent forever finding a parking, and when I arrived it was 30 min past the clock and all I saw was a bald lone-star wearing sunglasses playing under the spot in front of a pack of patrons in the venue... and I thought, this guy played OK but not my fav. So I found my friend and listened on... Another 30 min passed and this guy was still playing. I tapped my friend "what the heck this opener is playing forever??" and my friend's look was immediately struck and I saw terror in his eyes. Then I learned there weren't an opener at all and Satch himself just kicked off the show.

After I got my hands on guitars, now I understand how hard it was to play those stuff on a guitar as cleanly and gracefully as the legend!!

I guess another lesson I learned was performers are 10x the musicians they seem to be.

hes similar to vai, both great musicians, but some of the most boring shows i have ever seen.
vai works better as part of another band imo, his solo work is very skilled, but just doesn't do it for me

obviously others may well disagree.
im not the be all and end all of taste

[jancivil]

For me, Vai did his best work with Zappa when he was barely legal.
I got ahold of one of his CDs in the 90s and it really was dull for me.
A lot of his music is quite different than that.

I personally think very highly of Satriai's music, and I doubt I am going to agree with shaw very much on music to begin with. No accounting for taste as they say in the trade.
Side anecdote, I once clicked on a Satriani video, live show and there's my old bass player, Allen Whitman.
There's a picture I found on the internet, I never knew anyone was taking pictures, of me, Brazieal, and Whitman where I'm sitting down like I'm Fripp, Brazieal is pensive, and Whitman is clowning with this facetious rock star pose. Sorry, to me this is hilarious. Last time I saw the guy he was working in a little music store south of Market, I was buying strings. Joined Satriani in 2010, JS wanted a real basic bass player that wasn't Brian Beller, had attended a Mermen show and, impressed, hired him.

[vurt]

For me, Vai did his best work with Zappa when he was barely legal.
I got ahold of one of his CDs in the 90s and it really was dull for me.
A lot of his music is quite different than that.

yeah it was early 90s i saw him over here.
satch would have been around the same time, was the surfing with the alien record tour. bastard tricked me using the silver surfer as artwork, i thought it would be awesome.
it was not.

[vurt]

actually may have been very late 80s?

[jancivil]

He was 'discovered' in 1988

[vurt]

He was 'discovered' in 1988

wow was it that late?? with zappa?
thought he was doing shite snake by then

[vurt]

one of my friends mum's, claims david coverdale is his real dad